Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
I like all your guys optimism and do not want to rain on the parade.

However, the situation feels dire and I am worried. Only miners are left that partook in that ridiculous palm stacking procedure in HK. The idiot fraction is continously growing, accelerating. The altcoins are growing. As far as I can see, never had Bitcoin less cryptocurrency market share than now.
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
@Norway

Sadly that was just ms paint with a steady hand plus powerpoint and screenshotting. I'm rocking the most hacky of techniques at the moment!
 
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cliff

Active Member
Dec 15, 2015
345
854
Well, Core has successfully manipulated the community from a 'hardfork for larger blocks is a no-brainer' stance to a massive divide - granted, they basically exploited the gullible noobs that arrived hordes in Bitcoin's first maybe-not-so-eternal September, and they added some paid trolls - but still. Things have shifted by massive amount, without any facts changing. Do yo remember the good old times?

A key question is who would have an interest in stopping/slowing/limiting bitcoin's use and would be willing to use manipulation and/or clandestine tactics to accomplish that goal? Who would knowingly divide the community and risk their business in doing so? For example, If BTC can't be used as money b/c of unpredictable or slow settlement times, then it also won't work as a settlement layer (settlements must happen within a certain amount of time per various regs I've read). BS would know that; they should anyway - GM's significant other is now on staff as counsel.

And, why doesn't wouldn't such manipulation constitute some type of behavior subject to CFTC oversight or something? Sidechains/lighting channels also seem subject to regulation without some crafty craftiness.

I can't shake the idea that an intel agency (or consortium thereof) or some intel contractors (agents) may be at work. Didn't a lot of these folks show up during the height of Silk Road or right after the fall? We know govt operatives were all over Silk Road, MtGox, etc. Why not Core and/or BS?

Date comparison is interesting:
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
@cliff: Maybe so. I am hesitant to give conspiracy hypotheses too much credit, but they do happen.

In any case, then again a POS vote would seem to be about the only way out of the claws of these shady institutions.

If TPTB don't manage to thwart and suppress such an effort.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
@cliff: "who would knowingly ..."

Well, I'm fairly new to Bitcoin (few years less than most here). But even then, I can plainly see that there is no shortage of *very* shady characters in the Core/Blockstream orbit, if not at the C level.
It is my naive impression that they don't have many scruples at all when it comes to dividing the community and risking their business. They have wasted countless opportunities to prove the opposite.

Why this is so - I don't know.

---

Being young and naive, I also fail to see exactly how a POS vote would get us into a much better position. Unless the POW is changed, shenanigans will now continue in one form or another.
Most of the equipment is in China. It's not going to disappear, just change constellation.
The state could well have its finger on the button, pulling the strings to maintain this fortunate hardware asset under their control. Corrupt officials, inflated trade volume, who knows what else, but I don't think it's pretty.

How could we expect them to make it better? Increase the block size? That's not going to solve the 800-pound gorilla problem of extreme centralization, which is precisely what needs to be solved.
 
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awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
How could we expect them to make it better? Increase the block size? That's not going to solve the 800-pound gorilla problem of extreme centralization, which is precisely what needs to be solved.
I think it would remove the risk for the miners to be confused and misled, as such a POS vote would show the intent of holders in a crystal clear way.

If we believe @Jihan, this is the thing that happened with Borgstream - and continues to happen with the other miners. So I consider it the main problem.
 
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Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
@Norway try https://pixlr.com/ it's a free web app it's quite effective for "free", orders of magnitude better than paint. launches faster than Gimp.
Wow, have tested it now. The Pixlr Express is not what I need. But Pixlr Editor is fucking awsome! Spot on!
Thanks, @AdrianX ! I will use this for a lot of stuff!

Maybe I can become the Reich Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels to bigblocks, lol! :D
 

cliff

Active Member
Dec 15, 2015
345
854
@cliff: Maybe so. I am hesitant to give conspiracy hypotheses too much credit, but they do happen.

In any case, then again a POS vote would seem to be about the only way out of the claws of these shady institutions.

If TPTB don't manage to thwart and suppress such an effort.
What do you consider a conspiracy hypotheses (or a conspiracy theory, i assume the phrases are interchangeable)?

I ask not to be difficult. Its just that "conspiracy theory" as a label is often used as a pejorative judgment based on opinion (and often without much, if any, analysis). People tend to say, "that's just a conspiracy theory" and leave it at that as if the assertion of a theory being a conspiracy theory is sufficient to prove that it is and that the theory is therefore incorrect b/c its a conspiracy theory (and conspiracy theories are bad, mmmkay).

Technically, I think that the theory that Core or BS is trying to manipulate the BTC ecosystem, is also conspiracy theory. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

I'd rather just focus on the merits of the theories rather than labels. Not all of this response applies to awemany either - I'm mostly giving a general rant.
 

Erdogan

Active Member
Aug 30, 2015
476
855
You, calling your vendor: I was so happy with the last shipment, send me another batch of t-shirts.

Chinese vendor: Right on, and the container from Shanghai to Boston is dirt cheap now. That would be 40 monero.

- What! I have bitcoins.

-Sorry mate, it's all monero now, it makes my factory invisible.

- Ait, I'll come back later.

You, calling a friend: Eddie, do you still have monero?

Eddie: Sure, I might have some tucked away. I can sell you some for some ethers.

- Ethers, what about bitcoin?

- No, it's all ether now, because - blocks. And It can do anything, we can make a deal on the etherchain, it's phanfuckingtastic. Get yourself some ethers! You can buy them for bitcoin at backstreetexchange, sadly there is a spread of 30 percent because liquidity. But man, this is the future!
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
I think it would remove the risk for the miners to be confused and misled, as such a POS vote would show the intent of holders in a crystal clear way.

If we believe @Jihan, this is the thing that happened with Borgstream - and continues to happen with the other miners. So I consider it the main problem.
Thanks for explaining. Ok, it would first and foremost be a counterweight opinion to the perhaps slanted view that miners might have been presented by BS/Core.

But I ask myself: what about Toomin's visit, where most of them indicated at least 2MB blocks ok?
And the recent visit of Jeff (of which we never really heard how that went).

It just seems like there are some incentives, not entirely understood, which have lead miners to say one thing and do another.

So what do we hope will happen once the miners see the result of a POS vote?

Rational arguments seem to have failed multiple times. I am more hopeful that they may have reconsidered on their own and start to take initiative, than I am thinking they might be swayed by some foreigners voting. I don't want to disparage voting, but I would suggest going to the booth with a big stick.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,994
@awemany

don't POS signatures reveal everyone's public keys?
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,994
Hardforking will cause bitcoin losers to use lose funds
sounds like something we should implement :/
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