Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
4,290
Regarding what party should broadcast the transaction: It's clear to me that the receiving end has the financial motive to broadcast the transaction.
I like this one, it's a very astute Craigism, show me anyone else who noticed this dynamic? Just like the whitepaper you shift the burden of work onto the party who has the most incentive to complete it, and by doing so you can open up new territory. In this case offline transaction safety, now shops can continue to function even if the internet goes down, or customer has no phone credit/signal.

The way I understand it, the shop issues a transaction template, which the customers NFC (or bluetooth?) wallet signs and pays for the product. Then the merchant hands the goods over and sends the completed version of the template, as a copy of the receipt, back to the customers wallet (same address?) Almost instantaneous offline sale complete.

The customer can walk away with the goods, but the merchant now has to broadcast the sale. Note if the buyer tries to double spend, the merchant will know, the moment they broadcast the Tx. They will also have a signed purchase agreement in their till, which would be legally admissible evidence of theft, if the buyer did manage a double spend. Most shops have cameras too, so they could potentially choose to add an encrypted security photo with the transaction to be pruned after n time.

All parties are incentivised to be honest.

@Norway fair summary ?
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
but you already walked out of the store with the stuff you bought.
Well, I was actually thinking of online. In-store gets even more fun because I'm fairly sure no merchant is going to let you walk out with the stuff unless the transaction is confirmed to be on the network. At lease with online, you can try and sort things out asynchronously.
[doublepost=1555197188][/doublepost]
I like this one, it's a very astute Craigism, show me anyone else who noticed this dynamic? Just like the whitepaper you shift the burden of work onto the party who has the most incentive to complete it, and by doing so you can open up new territory. In this case offline transaction safety, now shops can continue to function even if the internet goes down, or customer has no phone credit/signal.
There's a reason the Bitcoin network is designed the way it is with the client taking responsibility for putting the transaction on the network. Be your own bank and all that. I've considered a few schemes doing things with generated transactions not on the network and you either need the client to manage control of the transaction or have complex fallbacks and management.

And if the internet is down, are we really expecting the merchant to hold on the the transaction and honor it even though that would allow double spends to be accomplished a lot easier? The scheme as explained in the link has the merchant pinging miners for their mempool contents.

You can do things this way and they probably work fine most of the time but again, we're getting away from the advantages of actually using Bitcoin.

@Norway, if your BIP has the ability for the client to manage this, that's cool but that's not what's described on CSW's article that you linked to. I don't really have an issue with what you are trying to do, just with what was laid out there.
 
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79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
>Well, I was actually thinking of online. In-store gets even more fun because I'm fairly sure no merchant is going to let you walk out with the stuff unless the transaction is confirmed to be on the network. At lease with online, you can try and sort things out asynchronously.

i would think Norway's NFC cards are conceived for transactions involving physical presence.

i would also think merchants are not going to double-spend themselves.

if the internet is down VISA is down as well.

to demand confirmation of txns you send using your hardware over a connection you control is to not trust the bitcoin protocol. a protocol that is not trusted won't be adopted either.
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
Merchant pushing the tx is also key for making 0-conf work, as then the thief can't control the timing of the doublespend attempt.
You have not seen cryptographic proof that Craig Wright was Satoshi.
Correct, though his signing wouldn't add anything appreciable to my assessment at this point.

Re: the screenshot of Craig's credit card history, it was never claimed to be proof, and anyway a screenshot is easily faked.

What's funny about this is how the tweeter's accusation of fraud by cropping the screenshot already contains within it a more basic implication that "Craig is such an idiot that he would try to put a screenshot out as a means of proving he is Satoshi and think that would work."

If you assume he's not a total fool, and especially if you read his other articles (work, again, that the anti-Craig faithful are curiously reluctant to perform except a few who do so occasionally in the form of scanning exclusively for some apparent mistake), you're forced into the conclusion that he was merely dressing up his article with a tidbit, a little tease as he does all the time. The fact that he cropped it is then obviously neither here nor there as there was no intention of it convincing anyone. In all cases not starting from the "Craig=Idiot" premise, the screenshot is quite clearly a mere tease at most, whether cropped or uncropped.

This circular reasoning of "Craig's an idiot, therefore I'll take the most idiotic interpretation of his actions and assume that's reality, in order to reinforce my belief that he's an idiot" is rampant among the faithful.

You yourself are probably too smart to fall for such a thing, so I'll assume you just posted that wondering what he was really up to. My best guess on that is he plans to sign in court. He seems to like slow dripping the proof, playing with all the subtle shades of gray between proven and unproven.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
I think most still wonder, "What does that do? Why not sign publicly if he has the keys?"

There are several very good reasons, albeit not obvious to those who think Satoshi is subject to what I'll call the Standard Assumption. The Standard Assumption is the usually unstated, often unnoticed, and always unacknowledged assumption in academia and other cultures where status is based on perceived merit - such as in open source and cypherpunk cultures - that "everyone else faces the same bottleneck as I do: that of demonstrating their merit in the culture; everyone is desperate to show this at all the times that it can be, and at least would never have a casual disregard for their image as meritorious [as judged by the rules of the culture, or as would be judged by authority figures in the field]."

If we do a proper provisional reasoning, we again have:

Scenario 1: He is not Satoshi.
Scenario 2: He is Satoshi.

In (1) we are left wondering why he would end up not being subject to the Standard Assumption. Could be the money, could be insanity, could be he is just an odd duck. None of those are all that convincing, so under (1) - where he is definitely not Satoshi - it is reasonable to suspect he is just a bumbling fool that is trying his best to demonstrate merit in his field but failing spectacularly, with numerous howlers and even the third rail in academia: readily noticeable plagiarism.

In (2), however - where he definitely is Satoshi - we hardly have to wonder why the Standard Assumption doesn't apply to him: he has already experienced living as the undispute king, even to some a god, in the field for years. He has already changed the face of history and everyone close to him likely also knows it. His merit is sky high, towering above everyone else for years even in absentia. He has no need for more merit/status in the culture of crypto; at most he might sometimes hanker for some recognition directly rather than as a persona, but it certainly wouldn't be a surprise if he had a casual disregard for his "real life" image...especially among the crypto community culture, which Satoshi has grown to hate and has no respect for (remember this is the scenario where Craig is definitely Satoshi).

In fact at that level, like for all the rich and famous, the bottleneck becomes filtering people, keeping away sycophants and the unthinking, knowing who can think critically and who can be trusted, knowing who looks at a posting of his and nitpicks that it doesn't conform with academic standards or is very sloppily edited or version controlled and who reads it for the content and doesn't care if he lifted some text from elsewhere rather than reinvent the wheel by being a good little academic and remixing it for no reason other than so that it no longer is considered academic misconduct.

Observing that Satoshi has both fuck-you money and fuck-you status in the context of the Standard Assumption, this result shouldn't be surprising, as odd as it may appear to a reddit gawker who had already built up an image of Satoshi the Saint.

I invite everyone to play with Scenario 2 further, to suspend your disbelief as a rationality exercise (you will balance it by doing the same for Scenario 1, if you haven't done enough of that already, only finally turning to assessing which one makes more sense at the very end).

In (2), a progressive reveal has considerable perks; one can milk every last shade between proven and unproven. We know Satoshi has many things he wants to accomplish after all, one of which is to kill the altcoins and in general to drive away those he sees as bad for the space. He wants whatever Craig wants, remember? (And if you're finding these reminders at all necessary, that's exactly why doing this provisional thinking properly is so important to the Satoshi question.)

A slow drip of gradients of proof via hints, demonstrations of deep understanding no one else had, inventions he is in no hurry to explain, private proofs to individuals, proofs to courts of law (with actual signing info sealed), and indeed things like domain purchase records, etc. function to keep the skeptics - which as this includes most of his enemies means he is doing a fantastic job - clinging to Scenario 1, in the dark, unable to mount an effective defense to what he has coming. You see, Satoshi's goal is bigger (because Craig's is - we're still in (2)): "Bitcoin is a wheel and I am building a car." And after he left disheartened by the direction Bitcoin had taken even as Core damaged it, the hour is now late. Another halving approaches. He cannot afford to waste an opportunity.

Like a good Go player, he leaves aji (unresolved questions) everywhere, plays with shades of influence instead of going for the kill right away, lulls his opponents into a false sense of security regarding his abilities, subtly cuts off his opponents' options, rarely does the obvious thing, and makes moves that perform multiple functions at once.

/scenario (but feel free to explore these scenarios more, just being careful never to switch between them midway through without noticing)

The conclusions of the anti-Craig faithful and their inability to see many things that are right in front of them does not mean they are fools, or even lacking in intelligence, even in brilliance. It only means they either haven't thought about what a proper assessment of the question entails or that something such as pride or other emotional factor is temporarily interfering with their objectivity (as we all know in other areas of life, anger and ridicule are telltale signs someone has lost their objectivity regarding their object of ridicule*).

*Some will point out that Craig falls into this as well. I agree. He often doesn't give people he disagrees with a fair shake. But that has nothing to do with him being Satoshi or not. (Yes Satoshi was usually amiable, but so were many. Circumstances change people; we have so many examples of this on both sides.)
 
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Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
If we do a proper provisional reasoning, we again have:

Scenario 1: He is not Satoshi.
Scenario 2: He is Satoshi.
(...)
I invite everyone to play with Scenario 2 further, to suspend your disbelief as a rationality exercise (you will balance it by doing the same for Scenario 1, if you haven't done enough of that already, only finally turning to assessing which one makes more sense at the very end).
I've been asked by a Scenario-1 truther on Reddit about my personal assessment of a Scenario 2 - probability. I answered, that it varies from day to day or week to week between 30 - 70 percent.

Who else among us has the courage to name a personal number here as well?
 
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Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
I like this one, it's a very astute Craigism, show me anyone else who noticed this dynamic? Just like the whitepaper you shift the burden of work onto the party who has the most incentive to complete it, and by doing so you can open up new territory. In this case offline transaction safety, now shops can continue to function even if the internet goes down, or customer has no phone credit/signal.

The way I understand it, the shop issues a transaction template, which the customers NFC (or bluetooth?) wallet signs and pays for the product. Then the merchant hands the goods over and sends the completed version of the template, as a copy of the receipt, back to the customers wallet (same address?) Almost instantaneous offline sale complete.

The customer can walk away with the goods, but the merchant now has to broadcast the sale. Note if the buyer tries to double spend, the merchant will know, the moment they broadcast the Tx. They will also have a signed purchase agreement in their till, which would be legally admissible evidence of theft, if the buyer did manage a double spend. Most shops have cameras too, so they could potentially choose to add an encrypted security photo with the transaction to be pruned after n time.

All parties are incentivised to be honest.

@Norway fair summary ?
Very close, @lunar!
I'm not going to nitpick on the details, as we have most likely published all the documentation within 24 hours. But I would like to mention that our smart card wallet implementation using the protocol does not reuse addresses. Change is always sent to a new address. To create new addresses is the most time consuming part of this, and a lot of the engineering the year we have been building this has been optimizing this process on existing hardware and shaving off milliseconds. The whole transaction process is now 1.3 seconds, which is satisfactory as a user experience.

EDIT: Regarding doublespend checks, we recommend POS solutions to do the check independent of the checkout process. Here is why:
Let's say the check takes 3 seconds. You don't want every single customer to wait 3 seconds every time they do a purchase because of this micro problem. It's much better to give the thief a head start of 3 seconds to grab his goods and run like crazy out of the shop. In the real world, it's much simpler for the criminal to just grab the goods in a shop and run out without even interacting with the POS terminal.

EDIT2: I'll chuck in another sexy fun fact. It's not related to the protocol itself, but to the platform we built the first implementation on. We use JavaCard. This is the same platform VISA/MasterCard and the banks use. What people may not be aware of, is that these cards can run many different applets, just like a computer can run many programs. So, it's possible to integrate a KaChing applet on a regular bank card next to your VISA applet. We hope to see cards with both the VISA logo and the KaChing logo in the future.

EDIT3: I think some people will find the protocol license interesting. It's open for use by others, but restricted to the BSV chain. No KaChing for shitcoins. :cool:
 
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bitsko

Active Member
Aug 31, 2015
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@freetrader dude, I know you are not trolling :) I would not ignore you, lots of great content coming from you regularly!



The people "speaking in riddles" are doing so because they want to take everyone's time and make this thread impossible to use or follow for normal people while at the same time getting maximum coverage for their anger and beliefs.

You may consider that you are playing their game and they are winning (= with attention and your time).

cant ignore freetrader as he is staff
 
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freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
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oh, i got a perk :ROFLMAO:

fwiw I'm not "staff" in the sense that bitsko is trying to make people believe.

I'm just another person who registered on this forum, and was granted Moderator status I believe for the "Bitcoin ABC" forum subsection because I asked Bloomie to create it when ABC was released (shortly before or after, I don't exactly recall), and he asked me to assist in moderating it.

I am not compensated in any way for this, contrary to what one might think of when someone says "staff". I never asked to be compensated in any way either. Nor do I have general admin moderation rights, and neither am I seeking.
 
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