Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
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@Zarathustra : Yes, I was rather thinking of different levels of society: If the gov cannot pay because the fiat money breaks down and you get a revolution and a new money system - is that necessarily societal collapse? I don't think so. Though it might.

I think this is a multi level thing. And things like religion assert themselves over and over again, and are thus quite stable 'metasocieties'.
[doublepost=1510601394][/doublepost]@adamstgbit : LOL. No I am just wondering about scenarios. Especially since I have more BCH than BTC now.
This FUD might also go both ways. The retaliation might be massive. I still think it is good to think about it.
 
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I have a few Bitcoin Cash, but not enough to be relevant in the financial world. I know I look good, and have a strong visual sex impact when I enter a room. Those of you who I have met, know what I'm talking about. It must be the only reason for why Greg tries to find out who I am in real life. I'm offended by his attention to me. I'd rather go on a date with Kevin Spacey than Greg. Neckbeard is not my thing. That's why I used the hashtag #MeToo :ROFLMAO:
This was a moment I laughed out when reading on my phone. It has always been a pleasure to meet you, and I'm confident everybody is looking forward to enjoy your sex impact again :=)

Thank you all for your answers on my ethic question. I will put them in another thread, maybe it's worth a discussion.

What a crazy weekend. I had to look charts and mempools and news round the clock. Couldn't resist.

I can not find it, but somewhere I read that Core delays the SegWit-Gui to 0.16.0 which is schedulded in May 2018. So no SegWit as standard change money in the next half year? If this is for real, I wonder it they are serious.

The same with the new r/bitcoin mods. Come on. PB0x, coinjaf etc. - these are the worst trolls of r/bitcoin. What's their goal? To burn that house completely and push everybody to r/btc?

I wonder if there is a plan behind. Did they just buy Bitcoin Cash? Are they supposed to crash the thing?
 

lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
4,290
@awemany
No I am just wondering about scenarios
I try playing out all these scenarios, and it quickly gets too complex to know anything for sure. Yet
at a certain point you have to assume that the miners that actually want bigger blocks will push the chain that is supported by everyone else who wants bigger blocks.

Admittedly they've been very slow to wake up in this whole affair, but they are wide awake now. There's no way that big block miners are going to bankrupt all their loyal supporters and reward everyone who's been trying to rent seek their future revenue. That would be the dumbest move ever, and is against the momentum.

It's obvious there are also many people around who just say stuff to mess with peoples heads.
Here's a good example of that xxx.bitcoincashplus.org Attempting to dilute the message as much as possible.
 
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awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
I try playing out all these scenarios, and it quickly gets too complex to know anything for sure. Yet
at a certain point you have to assume that the miners that actually want bigger blocks will push the chain that is supported by everyone else who wants bigger blocks.
Agreed. This is where I am at as well. I suspect there might be a weakness during the flippening where a fiat-bribed miner could wreak havoc all around, though.

Which wouldn't stop this long term, I think,and maybe also show the world that attacks can be stopped by 50% of HP, which many still don't seem to believe.

It is of course also not at all a reason to cancel this upgrade.

Oh, by the way, maybe you want to edit out the link above, to avoid giving that site a pagerank upvote. Make it so it can be manually accessed.

My impression is that this forum and this thread starts to carry some clout now.
 

adamstgbit

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2016
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Justus Ranvier

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
875
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Is tail removal something that's still on the table as a future upgrade now that the urgency to stabilize the difficulty algorithm is over?

A maximum block interval as well as a guarantee that the chain will always advance as long as there's one person on the planet willing to mine it is a very nice feature to have.
 

sickpig

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
926
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Is tail removal something that's still on the table as a future upgrade now that the urgency to stabilize the difficulty algorithm is over?

A maximum block interval as well as a guarantee that the chain will always advance as long as there's one person on the planet willing to mine it is a very nice feature to have.
AFAIK Bitcoin Cash is planning to have a set of non backward compatible periodic protocol upgrades (aka HF), let say one every 6 months or so.

So I guess that @theZerg's tail removal is something that is definitely on the table IMHO. Wonder what @dgenr8 @deadalnix think about it?

Another really interesting proposal is Bobtail. It has ben presented at Scaling Bitcoin Stanford by Brian Levine (Umass, same author of the Graphene paper).It is a generalization of the current Poisson process to minimize mining variance.

It is orthogonal to a difficulty adjustment algorithm but contribute to remove outliers from the process. Quoting the abstract from the paper linked above:

Bobtail paper - reducing variance - said:
Our algorithm, called Bobtail, generalizes the current algorithm by comparing the mean of the k lowest order statistics to a target. We show that the variance of inter-block times decreases as k increases. If our approach were applied to Bitcoin, about 80% of blocks would be found within 7 to 12 minutes, and nearly every block would be found within 5 to 18 minutes; the average inter-block time would remain at 10 minutes.
Other than reducing process variance it even reduce the profitability of a selfish mining attack significantly

Bobtail - hinder selfish mining profitability - said:
Further, we show that low-variance mining significantly thwarts doublespend and selfish mining attacks. For Bitcoin and Ethereum currently (k = 1), an attacker with 40% of the mining power will succeed with 30% probability when the merchant sets up an embargo of 8 blocks; however, when k ≥ 20, the probability of success falls to less than 1%. Similarly, for Bitcoin and Ethereum currently, a selfish miner with 40% of the mining power will claim about 66% of blocks; however, when k ≥ 5, the same miner will find that selfish mining is less successful than honest mining. The cost of our approach is a larger block header
emph is mine, if true this basically means that the selfish mining problem is solved for good.

Still need to study the paper but it is indeed promising.
 

theZerg

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 28, 2015
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2,327
Is tail removal something that's still on the table as a future upgrade now that the urgency to stabilize the difficulty algorithm is over?

A maximum block interval as well as a guarantee that the chain will always advance as long as there's one person on the planet willing to mine it is a very nice feature to have.
I think that we should still consider it. It has the usability advantages that you mentioned and it makes the mining process theoretically sound -- it guarantees progress in the presence of multiple same-POW blockchains. None of the other proposals do that (even bobtail). Yes the new DAA is more resistant to chain death than Bitcoin's (which is particularly vulnerable). However, it still relies on "benevolent" mining, and as I described in my paper this means that greedy miners can exploit the benevolent miners to increase their revenue per block.
 

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
@Zarathustra : Yes, I was rather thinking of different levels of society: If the gov cannot pay because the fiat money breaks down and you get a revolution and a new money system - is that necessarily societal collapse? I don't think so.
Mediums of exchange always evolved, but debt has always been the real money and the driver of the economy. It started the economy and it ends all economy. When it disappears: game over.

Graeber:

The author claims that debt and credit historically appeared before money, which itself appeared before barter. This is the opposite of the narrative given in standard economics texts dating back to Adam Smith. To support this, he cites numerous historical, ethnographic and archaeological studies. He also claims that the standard economics texts cite no evidence for suggesting that barter came before money, credit and debt, and he has seen no credible reports suggesting such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-489#post-17874
 
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Maybe you can understand dept as some kind of future here: people said, give me some milk, and I'll give you wool when winter comes ... this started orally, than was written, and than people realized that they need more precise terms to match asks and bids ...

Something else:
Did anyone here read the new paper of Craig?
https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=998105006000066120071111114101097121053040051018055094125101003098094103071067122123041031008002042043044095084115031116017085025010021006031087093018115099083102030064008046090122005004105022127108088119029021025097108070082120068121064088117091101069&EXT=pdf

I'm impressed, first time with anything nChain does.
 

sickpig

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
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it guarantees progress in the presence of multiple same-POW blockchains. None of the other proposals do that (even bobtail)
exactly.

Bobtail given a certain level of difficulty just lower the variance process that regulated blocks production.
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
Very telling, that /r/bitcoin turned from a retarded meme subreddit to a slander and libel platform just after the SW2X cancelling.

Very low and disgusting. Twisted child porn accusations, "he is a convicted felon", "he is into drugs and hookers", gambling...

I know, one shouldn't give a fuck about the poor souls there, but it really is creepy.