Coronavirus: COVID-19 pandemic and lockdown

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
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Yes, the insanity of our system is that my ability to buy bread depends on millions of people buying stupid things all the time.

It's a giant waste of human time and natural resources, and if our global lock down teaches us to get our daily bread a bit less weird, it will be a good thing.

But suddenly preventing people forcefully to no longer produce and consume unnecessary things will make millions no longer be able to buy bread very soon. But yeah, we can't compare lives with economics, as all the people scream to us, who don't understand how the system works.
Imagine that: The most affected region in the world, Lombardy with 10 million inhabitants, falls into chaos when 1,000 intensive care patients have to be treated, 0.01% of the population. New York doesn't seem to be in a better position, let alone GB ...

Converted to self-sufficient Dunbar communities in the rainforest, that would be 1 person per 100 communities who burdens the system.

Once again:

Hansel and Gretel are alive and well
And they're living in Berlin
(...)
She said: what is history?
And he said: history is an angel being blown backwards into the future
He said: history is a pile of debris
And the angel wants to go back and fix things
To repair the things that have been broken
But there is a storm blowing from paradise
And the storm keeps blowing the angel backwards into the future
And this storm, this storm is called progress
 
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Yes, maybe progress made our system ultra vulnerable, so that small treats can make it shutdown, like a tiny bug can shutdown windows...

I really don't know... Maybe panic is a good strategy if you have a new virus we don't know enough about? Maybe people bending to authority and thinking synchronously are the right answer?

I just don't like it. Yesterday we watched a bit of public TV. It was really stupid.

First, a senior residence. A women in interview, complaining about the stupid people still visiting their relatives, risking lives. Being angry on stupid people not going with all restrictions seems to be a very common responsibility of good citizens nowadays.

Later, the political boss of one province, was asked if the measures are proportional. His answer was blabla something, what we do is proportional as long as it helps us fighting the virus. So. Proportionality of a measure does no longer depend on the measure, but on the goal. He could have said: as long as we have Corona (or any other risk) it's OK what we do because we do it.

Today I was at the doctor, because of a knee problem. They only let one person inside, everybody has to wait outside. Everybody in with full amour. People outside wearing masks, even when there is a distance of several meters between everyone.

It's all too weird, and I start feeling very scared where all this ends.
 

Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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> It's all too weird, and I start feeling very scared where all this ends.



Worst case: The chloroformed citizen (sickest species ever) and his delegates only realized in June that the domino game towards the abyss is getting faster and faster after a slow start and can no longer be stopped. Then the Internet and electricity disappear on the same day.
The nuclear power plants, which are no longer cooled due to a lack of electricity, evaporate and the planet becomes radioactive. Marauding gangs can no longer find anything they can loot and also disappear without a sound. (without a whisper, as Leonard Cohen would say).

Best case: They finally realize what's happening and cancel this lockdown madness on April 19 and the system can be restarted without causing bank run, overall panic and structural breakdown. In this case, the government (tax fool) will be left with an even more grotesque debt than before (plus 20-30%).

2012


1970
 
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Zarathustra

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Sorry, but there is now no less than the lives of billions at stake. One of the most influential publicists in Germany describes the impending socio-economic meltdown. Hardly anyone has described the causal relationships better. Shame on the majority of economists and business leaders who don't see the obvious and don't rebel against this destructive madness.

Translation:

If we do not end the total blockade soon, there will be a historic meltdown in the German economy. Politicians should leave radical mode and start intelligent virus control.

Germany is facing the biggest wave of bankruptcies since the Great Depression of 1929. The historically unique shutdown of the entire economy does more damage every day. If the government is not careful, the damage will be irreparable. After just two weeks, 470,000 companies in Germany reported short-time work because of the total blockade. Millions of workers are directly affected and are worried about their economic existence. Unemployment will now skyrocket. In Austria, the shutdown has pushed unemployment to its highest level since 1946 - in just one month.

But this snapshot is only a small thing compared to what threatens to damage the German economy and the social fabric of the country if the shutdown were extended far beyond Easter. The historical mega experiment of simply switching off an economy has no example, because even in the world wars the economy continued. However, it does not know its risk.

Politicians must weight two effects more sharply, which will ruin economic activity in a tsunami way. On the one hand, the shutdown very soon causes huge damage with chain reactions. Production networks collapse, supply chains break, tens of thousands of individuals, small businesses and medium-sized companies become insolvent (much faster than is believed in Berlin) - government aid measures can only mitigate this, but not prevent it. Every bankruptcy creates a consequential problem for suppliers, creditors and customers, who in turn get problems. Even if the individual company can survive for a month or two, the crack in the business network ensures that each month of downtime is actually multiplied by damage. It behaves like the meltdown of an atomic reactor. In the end, the fallout ends up with the banks, which are threatened with huge loan losses. So every single day produces billions of dollars in debt radiation. The meltdown can wreak havoc within weeks, and even healthy companies can burn up.

Politicians must not underestimate the density of interaction between economic stability. If this is destroyed - as is now the case during a shutdown - the axis of economic progress will break. Politics, dominated by civil servants and lawyers, clearly tend to view the economy as a large, static authority that can be closed for a while and, if necessary, subsequently helped with money. In reality, however, the economy is like a living organism that simply dies if its cycle does not circulate.

The second underestimated problem is the structural break in a quarantine economy. When thousands of startups die in a shutdown, the arithmetical damage to the economy doesn't seem to weigh much.

In fact, the creative potential of the future is being destroyed. The same applies to research-driven growth companies and to particularly competitive industries that suddenly disappear completely from the market in a structural break. If the typical Swabian-medium-sized world market leader goes bankrupt after months of zero business, then Germany has lost this world market leadership forever. With every company, knowledge and added value for the future also disappear. Even the key German car industry is endangered. The margins of manufacturers and suppliers had already declined sharply before the outbreak of the corona crisis, and electrification and digitization are already attacking the classic business model. Especially now that billions of dollars of investment would be needed, the entire core business is breaking down. An industry that is juggling on a fine line can completely be teared down by such a crisis.

The strategy of using a radical shutdown to stop a virus was risky from the start. Now every hour the risk increases that the enormous rescue packages in turn trigger confidence crises and financial market turmoil. Does the Eurosystem really hold up in such a situation? Are the Italian and Spanish sovereign debt still blindly trusted? Can the ECB actually defend the euro? So far, the illusion of trust has depended on the fact that states and central banks can guarantee everything. In reality, however, they cannot. Politicians have to be extremely careful not to reveal this.

There is an alternative to the shutdown

April 19 is not just an appointment. It is the weather divide from a possible medical catastrophe that we are trying to avoid, to a socio-economic catastrophe, the beginnings of which we can already see. The concept of the European states to rely on radical mass quarantines with week-long curfews and no contacts requires an extremely high price - namely that of economic and social breakdown.

In any case, the shutdown concept of corona crisis management is not without alternative. So the countries of East Asia trust a completely different strategy. From Japan to Singapore, from Hong Kong to Taiwan to South Korea, the economy continues, there is no shutdown of society, schools and shops remain open. Even if the societies of East Asia function differently and the East Asians have a different understanding of the state and cohabitation: they seem to get through the crisis much better than the Europeans. Her recipe: masks for everyone, tight controlling and digital tracking of the sick. Keep your distance (especially for the elderly) and pay attention to hygiene anyway. The success is amazing, the infection seems to be better controlled in East Asia than in the mask-free shutdown Europe.

Sweden, too, even if it adjusts the strategy against Corona here and there, takes a different path than Germany. Many other countries are thus showing that pandemic control can work much more smoothly with modern, intelligent, digital methods. If the majority of the population - such as those under the age of 50 - are hardly affected by this disease, why should they be locked away and their economic existence? Is it perhaps an option to specifically protect those in need of protection? The total blockade of a shutdown may protect a patient from a virus, but the patient then dies in economic circulatory failure - that cannot be wise. Germany's compulsory coma must end on April 19!

 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
5,257
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@Zari, you'll love this. for the life of me, i can't see how this can be accurate. grocery store shelves have been empty of several items and you want farmers to throw away milk? wtf?:

According to farmers, producers for Clover Farms were instructed to dump their milk because the dairy is full.


i mean, give the stuff away to those terrified or suffering from food shortages.
 
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Sorry, but there is now no less than the lives of billions at stake. One of the most influential publicists in Germany describes the impending socio-economic meltdown. Hardly anyone has described the causal relationships better. Shame on the majority of economists and business leaders who don't see the obvious and don't rebel against this destructive madness.

Translation:
...

Seems like this is the end of the world we are grown up with.

I think the initial shutdown was good, despite all the damage it did. But there needs to be some exit strategy.

From talking with people, my impression is, many welcome a system change. In Germany people become aware that things will not go back to like they were before, that globalization cooled down and that many things will have to be produced more locally, even if this might make them more expensive. Many will lose a lot, aber markets will give a lot of opportunities.

From the view of everybody, this is like a global strike of the workforce. Unlike a crisis liken 2008, which suddenly popped out of the financial system, this is caused externally, by a global thread. The recreation on the economy could become some kind of historic mission of our generations, which are a bit bored of being historically lucky, but unnecessary...
 
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Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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Seems like this is the end of the world we are grown up with.

I think the initial shutdown was good, despite all the damage it did. But there needs to be some exit strategy.
I believe Sweden does it better.
If you tell the sheep that wolves (Ebola) are coming, you can not justify an exit as long as the wolves are still around.
Okay, perhaps they can. The sheep applaude whatever their shepherds and idols do.

 
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rocks

Active Member
Sep 24, 2015
586
2,284
It's all too weird, and I start feeling very scared where all this ends.
This event showed just how many people are willing to do what they are told and sacrifice everything because "experts" told them what to do and they can't look or see for themselves.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

What is scary is 99% of the population wants that trade.

Best case: They finally realize what's happening and cancel this lockdown madness on April 19 and the system can be restarted without causing bank run, overall panic and structural breakdown. In this case, the government (tax fool) will be left with an even more grotesque debt than before (plus 20-30%).
I am beginning to believe there is no best case and humanity stupidly shot itself in the foot in a manner which we may not recover from. I hope I am wrong, but believe we are in the process of passing the point of no return and have locked in a massive depression.

The reason is oil.

The theory of the lockdown is experts believe it is OK to shut everything down and when the all clear is given everything will bounce back, and they are confident in this because the FED is there to backstop everything financially. No matter how many people lose their jobs or businesses go under, after a short or long term lock down physical assets still exist and the FED can just simulate everything to get going.

And this is mostly true, sure airlines and cruise ships and retail will go bankrupt, but the planes, ships, stores and factories still exist. Creditors can take over and a V shaped recovery can be created, without permanent damage.

Except oil which is not a physical asset like planes or ships, but an organic resource that we are in the process of permanently damaging and unless this is reversed soon.

Every year the global supply base produces 100 million barrels per day (100mbpd), additionally demand increases by 1mpbd while decline rates cause a loss of 5-6mbpd. As a result every year the industry needs to develop 6-7mpbd of new supply each and every year, and to do so requires massive investment and all of the industry's resources and human capital to do so.

In a "normal" oil crash the market is oversupplied by ~1mbpd, which is enough to crash the price which causes investment slow down, but not stop. That oversupply might last a few years, but it can easily be worked into storage around the world. The industry goes from deploying 6-7mbpd each year to a few less than that until a balance is reached. Additionally normal recessions only cause a slight drop of 1-2% in demand (in 2009 demand dropped 2% but quickly recovered in 2010 plus grew by two years worth of demand increases in just that year). Supply/demand goes through cycles, but are both fairly stable and always roughly balanced in the big picture.

Today? Demand globally is off >20mbpd (20%) and growing. In 100 years nothing close to this has happened before, and the demand crash came so fast there was no time to react. The problem is not the price crash, E&Ps have hedges for this, the problem is the shock is so large and so fast that local storage has immediately filled up, the pipelines feeding them have filled up and the oversupply is backing all the way up to the well head. Which forces a shut in.

E&Ps never want to shut in because for many types of wells, particularly shale, it damages the well and best case the well can be reworked with some loss in reserves, while in other cases it is lost.

If demand does not pick up soon >10mbpd globally will have to be hard shut in. It will take a decade for supply to recover from that.

When the lockdown ends, even if it ends in a bad recession, the world will still want 98-100mbpd all of a sudden, but those shut in wells won't come back and only <90mpbd will be available. There will be enough storage for some time but to grow supply from 90 to 100mbpd takes 10 years. We are looking at a massive oil shortage ..... for 10 years..... That's hard to recover from. It's a disaster in the making.
 

cbeast

Active Member
Sep 15, 2015
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Well this thread has taken a fascinating turn the last few weeks, and a new format to boot. Nice work @Bloomie 👍

I've been off grid and being healthy as much as possible, away from the toxic social media scene.

Thank you @Zarathustra and others for trying to talk some sense into the foul wind of political nonsense that's being spouted everywhere. Your posts have been welcome rational break, and for the most part, I whole heartedly agree.

Locking down the entire planet based on incomplete and flawed stats, in the hopes of preventing some speculative doomsday scenario, without so much as a thought to the economic dystopia governments have just unleashed, is utter madness. Those that have been arguing against, seem incapable of parsing how the 'cure' to this disaster is almost certainly going to be much much worse, than the virus itself.

Yes we get it.. dangerous, resilient, and particularly nasty bug that will likely kill a very large number of people, but there are bigger problems.
(super majority of which had pre-exisitng conditions, are over 75, and still we're looking to be less than a very bad year of influenza)



Meanwhile 1.3 billion Indians were given 4 hours to prepare for a 3 week total lockdown. How many of those were subsistence living and now going to go hungry or starve? 100's of thousands are now walking home, unable to work or feed their families.

This is just one example of a litany worldwide, and just the beginning. Each week this lockdown continues, will be exponentially damaging for years, possibly decades to come.

The Fed and others have gone QE infinity, helicopter money for the people and 1000x more for the Wall Streets crew. Modern faux-capitalism at it finest (privatise the gains, socialise the losses) 1/3 of the planet under curfew. Madness at every turn. Welcome to Orwell's 1984 and the 1920's depression combined.

So much to be said, but what's the point, none are listening, time to move to Sweden.
I don't know what folks are complaining about. So what if it's not such a serious threat? So what if it really is? Shouldn't civilization be prepared for either event? If it turns out to be not so bad, at least we had a wake-up call about the great unknown. Next time we might not be so lucky.
 
I don't know what folks are complaining about. So what if it's not such a serious threat? So what if it really is? Shouldn't civilization be prepared for either event? If it turns out to be not so bad, at least we had a wake-up call about the great unknown. Next time we might not be so lucky.
If it turns out to be not that bad - some signals indicate this - the public will either lose trust in its experts and not take this serious next time, even if it might be very serious, or the media and government will have to keep a lie going and make people believe something (we saved you) despite scientific truths.

Also, if we crash the economy for nothing, it's desillusional to think mass unemployment and less tax revenue will put the system in a better state to fight an upcoming deadly virus.
 
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lunar

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Aug 28, 2015
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Yes, the insanity of our system is that my ability to buy bread depends on millions of people buying stupid things all the time.
Great line.

I don't know what folks are complaining about. So what if it's not such a serious threat? So what if it really is? Shouldn't civilization be prepared for either event? If it turns out to be not so bad, at least we had a wake-up call about the great unknown. Next time we might not be so lucky.
An accidental global pandemic emergency drill. That's what this will turn out to be, when we look back at it. (also the pin the popped the biggest financial bubble in history) The WHO and China triggered it. I don't really blame them either. Emergency response protocols were set years before hand, boxes were checked, appropriate actions were taken, dominoes started to fall. It's hard for individual governments to go against trend, when a scared population demands action. Laissez-faire medicine, just looks lazy. 🙃 We're tracking sickness in almost realtime, at a resolution never before possible, and it's leading to false conclusions and scary graphs.

fantastic article from J.lee John Lee professor of pathology, NHS

Early evidence from Iceland, a country with a very strong organisation for wide testing within the population, suggests that as many as 50 per cent of infections are almost completely asymptomatic.
Governments everywhere say they are responding to the science. The policies in the UK are not the government’s fault. They are trying to act responsibly based on the scientific advice given. But governments must remember that rushed science is almost always bad science. We have decided on policies of extraordinary magnitude without concrete evidence of excess harm already occurring, and without proper scrutiny of the science used to justify them.
The moral debate is not lives vs money. It is lives vs lives.


The issues we're complaining about are ones that should be fk*n obvious. 10's of millions freshly unemployed, more to come, supply chains breaking down, housing markets about to crash, skyrocketing homelessness, food banks running out. Global depression on the way, with governments enacting emergency police state protocols. (how many won't fully relinquish their new found power?) Drone monitoring and turn in your neighbour social distancing apps, shoot to kill orders in the Philippines, Moroccans sent to jail for not wearing masks, AVs on virus street patrol in Tunisia, domestic abuse and suicides skyrocketing, the worlds poorest getting hit hardest as usual.... pick your dystopia, these are all recent events as i'm trying not to be hyperbolic, there's many more to choose from.

We've gone from nanny state to Nurse Ratched state, and i'm not sure how much more 'medicine' we can take before a coma is induced.



With QE infinity as others have pointed out, it's hard to see how this won't be good for Bitcoin, although its infrastructure is very far from built. If the global economy gets put on ventilator adoption will likely be slowed considerably more than it already has been.

Where would we be now if those N.Corean dimwits hadn't interfered ?
 

Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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i have refrained from commenting on the pandemic, but i thought i would share this sensible read.

The shutdownpanic-20 virus will kill millions in Africa. On the other hand, Covid-19 is present in all countries in Africa, but it does not spread, although there is no water to wash your hands. Kenya, Zimbabwe, Senegal, Ivory Cost etc. have around 0.2 deaths per million inhabitants. Same in India and most countries with hot climate.
 
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Zarathustra

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Yes, the flu season usually ends in April when people leave their homes where the transmission is greatest due to the low humidity in the rooms. Open windows, sun and fresh air cure the flu. Unfortunately, the forced quarantine is now delaying this.

Who would have thought ... @Bloomie ???

Dr Jenna Macciochi, of the University of Sussex, said: 'If you are deficient in Vitamin D, you are three to four times more likely to catch a cold.

'It therefore makes sense a viral respiratory infection like Covid-19 would be worse if you were Vitamin D-deficient.'