But 'rona is not more leathal than seasonal flu. A couple of months sheltering is not going to sink the ships, break the warehouses, crash the trucks and destroy everything.
Yes, but it sinks the lives of millions if a billion poor people are already balancing on the brink of doom before the lockdown. No matter if my friends or my enemies realize this. It is a fact.
However, a financial crisis because money itself breaks is very possible, and that will be a total clusterfuck for anyone trying to exchange goods and services.
The money doesn't necessarily break. Debts/credit (assets/liabilities) disappear. Then there is simply less money. That was also the case in the Great Depression. Capitalism is not thesaurism. It is debitism. Capitalism is always about servicing debt. Likewise in communism, where you are only indebted to the state. In capitalism, private debt is the main component, which is why it is more efficient. However, private debt always disappear from time to time due to bankruptcies. Public debt, on the other hand, always only disappears at the end. The state is the flaw in the system. Without the state, however, there is no capitalist/communist system. As a result, the system is doomed from the start.
Every social system that goes beyond the Dunbar number is based on state compulsion, and thus on debt. It always works until it doesn't.
I also used to think that if society collapsed, you could survive in the wild with the right preparation. In today's situation, however, this is no longer possible. When France collapses, and with it the power grid, the atmosphere becomes radioactive even in the most remote corners of the northern hemisphere.
What does it mean when we say that many companies and individuals have insufficient money reserves to survive crises for some months? It means that if many companies and individuals had built up more money reserves, many others would have built up even more debt, because there is always the other side of the balance sheet. This is the funny thing about the system that many forget or don't know.
Life is looking so 1984. Here is a rundown of some facts in the pandemic of 1918 that the pharmaceutical industry does not want you to consider (history is being rewritten so please read it now before it hidden in obscurity) The pandemic of 1918 was a man-made accident, not unlike the Pandemic of 2020.
Aspirin's Historyhttps://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/12/22/aspirin.history/index.html
Aspirin became a generic, every drug manufacturer was in competition to produce it for the war effort in WWII. And being a "miracle cure" was given in high doses by doctors the world over for everything. Supply-side deflation for the hottest commodity in history a cure-all solution, that wasn't snake oil.
The drug became a hit and, in 1915, it was sold as over-the-counter tablets.
One patient who should not have been taking aspirin was young Alexei Nicholaevich Romanov of Russia, who had hemophilia. Aspirin would make the bleeding in this disorder worse, but the imperial doctors likely gave the boy this new wonder drug without knowing, Jeffreys said.
The Story behind the pandemic that's not known by the public.
High aspirin dosing levels used to treat patients during the 1918-1919 pandemic are now known to cause, in some cases, toxicity and a dangerous build-up of fluid in the lungs
FYI. A fever is the body's reaction to a pathogen. A virus is self-replicating RNA/DNA, it's literally a reaction that takes your DNA and replicates it's like a chemical reaction. Evolution has given us an advantage, we change our temperature (a fever) and the reaction is impeded giving us time to get on top of the infection. A virus is a threat. From the perspective of life on earth, a virus (primordial soup) is year 1 in a 4,540,000,000 year-long struggle in evolution, it's not about to win.
Aspirin inhibits fever, allowing the pathogen to replicate unaffected by the body. Aspirin contributed in more than one way to the high death toll of 1918 when drug companies (and mom and pop shops) were pushing really hard to keep demand for the Asprin flooding the market.
The above, and the research that's being ignored by the establishment. People like Bill Gates use the Spanish Flu story as an example as to why governments need to take action, ignoring reality.
The devastation of the 1918-1919 influenza pandemic is well known, but a new article suggests a surprising factor in the high death toll: the misuse of aspirin. AThe article sounds a cautionary note as present day concerns about the novel H1N1 virus run high.
www.sciencedaily.com
The devastation of the 1918-1919 influenza pandemic is well known, but a new article suggests a surprising factor in the high death toll: the misuse of aspirin.
Evolution is happening it's not being driven by mortality to viruses, it's being driven by a meme, not cat videos, but ideas. Unfortunately, Richard Dawkins's idea, a meme, is drowned out in the sea of cat videos and other images that have given a new meaning to the word that describes the engineering mechanism currently shaping the human race.
This is not the block size debate where you guys can just circle jerk, appeal to each other's authority, and feel good about yourselves. We'll listen to scientists and doctors, thanks.
Hi @Bloomie! Hi @cypherblock ! Did you listen? (Not) your doctors and scientists are showing the numbers.
The opposite of the exponential disaster that your docs an scientists predicted actually happens as soon as people don't suffer from a lockdown of their brains and businesses.
Hi @Bloomie! Hi @cypherblock ! Did you listen? (Not) your doctors and scientists are showing the numbers.
The opposite of the exponential disaster that your docs an scientists predicted actually happens as soon as people don't suffer from a lockdown of their brains and businesses.
Sweden 23216 cases, 2854 deaths, pop: 10.23 million
Finland 5412 cases, 245 deaths, pop: 5.518 million
Norway 7928 cases, 215 deaths, pop: 5.368 million
Denmark 9821 cases, 503 deaths, pop: 5.8 million
“Whatever they have done [in Sweden] has been leading to more deaths,” Hanage says. “It does not seem that there were appropriate steps taken to ensure the safety of people in those nursing homes. … If you’re going to have a strategy like that, you need to be thinking about your vulnerable population.” https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200501/sweden-sticks-with-controversial-covid19-approach
But despite your repeated ridiculous misrepresentations I've never been in favor of "lockdowns" that are extreme. There does not have to be one size fits all. Get this through your head.
LOL, maybe have a look at downlocked Belgium, the bankrupt Italy, Spain, UK etc.
LOL, maybe have a look at the collateral damage by the lockdown that is much higher than the damage caused by the flu.
LOL, maybe compare the coming socioeconomic catastrophe with a recession, that we would have had if the cypherblocks of the world would have listened to the Tegnells instead of those socioeconomic dabblers and destroyers.
LOL, unemployment in Sweden rose 1.2%, in Norway nearly 7%
LOL, maybe compare the immunity rate at Sweden and its neighbours in the next wave.
LOL, maybe the cypherblocks beg for the turbo-tested vaccine.
LOL, maybe compare the 70 percent car sales of non-downlocked Japan with the 3 percent of the downlocked UK.
Boulevard bullshit. You really have no clue. Sweden faces the opposite of the horror scenarios that alien 'experts' predicted. Instead of exponential growth into disaster, the peak is already behind them.
Se Coronavirus spridning på varje kommun och region i Ålder och Kön. Uppdateras löpande. Kartor, siffor, diagram och grafer över Coronavirus i hela Sverige. Sjukdomsfall Intensivvårdsavdelning Dödsfall Friska Sjukhus c19 platz.se
platz.se
Oh, surprise:
"Sweden represents a future model. … If we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns,” the WHO’s Mike Ryan said, praising the way Swedes are trusted to "self-regulate.”
The country's lockdown model is being lauded by the WHO, but it's a unique case whose death rate is much worse than its neighbors.
www.japantimes.co.jp
> But despite your repeated ridiculous misrepresentations I've never been in favor of "lockdowns" that are extreme.
Ridiculous. Of course you do. You defend it whenever you can, attack and LOL at the swedish non-extreme solution once again. The more you write, the more obvious it becomes.
Ridiculous. Of course you do. You defend it whenever you can, attack and LOL at the swedish non-extreme solution once again. The more you write, the more obvious it becomes.
No I only attack you . I think the Swedish approach is interesting and can work in some areas if done right. Not clear if Sweden actually did it right. Their own lead epidemiologist often questions their own approach and is not sure it is correct and is willing to adjust if needed. I do not think it is good for many countries given their current population : education, access to medical care, pre-existing conditions, degree of interaction with at risk populations, etc are all factors.
If New York City had offices, bars, restaurants, schools, and pretty much everything else all open during the height of the outbreak, then this would lead to a much higher disease/death rate in the short term, almost certainly this is the case. Whether or not in the long term the total number of people affected would be higher with this approach or not I cannot say for sure, but I strongly suspect it. Show me the model that says otherwise. Make a case instead of just saying "Sweden !" , because I'm not convinced by their numbers and even that this works in other places.
At minimum the idea is to at least find out more information by having some measure of shutdown (not lockdown) till that information is available. I have never felt that retail needs to be truly shutdown, just limited. I've been going to Home Depot many times over past few weeks and there is no issue (they require masks and limit # of people in store). I don't see why this doesn't apply to other retail. Colleges likewise could remain open but keep some professors more isolated since they are the ones at risk, and provide testing so that travel home is possible.
Now that widespread antibody testing is coming online, this data is starting to fill in the picture and countries, cities, states can adjust accordingly. Meanwhile Sweden with their small population, few outside visitors, large degree of solo living, less interaction with elderly is just not a model that we can reliably say works everywhere without having more data points.
And yet despite all of the above, you will likely just call me a "lockdown" fanatic, and I'm killing millions by my relentless lockdown approach. Sigh.
Here is the thing, a large percent of elderly people die from lung infections, and that's been a very small percent of the population.
What's going on now is normal but for the media focus and the WHO noise. People been dying forever. And the cause of death practically within year to year variations no change there. (actually lover with the reduction of elective surgery and car travel) .
Now the clincher. As Boomers are nearing the average life expectancy the percent of old people dying is going to remain unchanged however 1 in 5 people in the West is a Boomer so the percent of the population dying from a lung infection is going to skyrocket by multiples. (we largely get Western news not world news and it's largely sensationalized to sell advertising. (nothing sells like the fear of death.)
Healthy people live longer, centralisied planning can't help those who don't look after their health.
The countries with the highest death tolls have rapidly increasing elderly populations. It only gets worse from here and it's not indicative of a pandemic other than an aging pandemic .
The least healthy in the 75-79 age group are going to check out and the total will continue to get smaller and by age 100 you've done well if you are still enjoying life. Objectively this looks like the world has gone psychotic and many have collective physios.
It's folly to focus on the number of deaths, focus on the change in percentages relative to the whole. numbers go up.
> No I only attack you . I think the Swedish approach is interesting and can work in some areas if done right. Not clear if Sweden actually did it right. Their own lead epidemiologist often questions their own approach and is not sure it is correct and is willing to adjust if needed.
You can never be sure. It seems that he just calculated the probability of a much greater destruction by a crazy lockdown to be much higher.
> I do not think it is good for many countries given their current population : education, access to medical care, pre-existing conditions, degree of interaction with at risk populations, etc are all factors.
Which countries? Do you think it's good for Italy to prefer bankruptcy?
> If New York City had offices, bars, restaurants, schools, and pretty much everything else all open during the height of the outbreak, then this would lead to a much higher disease/death rate in the short term, almost certainly this is the case.
That's what the experts predicted to Sweden. Exponential rise into disaster. They've been wrong, but you still make such unfunded claims? Flu viruses usually spread when people shelter and flee the sun into Vitamin D deficiency. That's what they are forced to do now.
> Whether or not in the long term the total number of people affected would be higher with this approach or not I cannot say for sure, but I strongly suspect it. Show me the model that says otherwise.
Your model already led to 40 Million additional unemployed homines sapientes in the US alone. Hundreds of Millions in Africa and Asia, without food.
Difficult to find a model that would top the mess of your model.
> Make a case instead of just saying "Sweden !" , because I'm not convinced by their numbers and even that this works in other places.
Despite the data that couldn't be more obvious? 'Strange'.
> At minimum the idea is to at least find out more information by having some measure of shutdown (not lockdown) till that information is available.
Another 40 Million unemployed in the Greatest Country Of The Planet? Just to confirm the data that we know since Diamond Princess, that the mortality rate is between 0.2 and 0.6 percent? Great idea! The opposite of common sense.
> I have never felt that retail needs to be truly shutdown, just limited. I've been going to Home Depot many times over past few weeks and there is no issue (they require masks and limit # of people in store). I don't see why this doesn't apply to other retail. Colleges likewise could remain open but keep some professors more isolated since they are the ones at risk, and provide testing so that travel home is possible.
Finally ...
> Now that widespread antibody testing is coming online, this data is starting to fill in the picture and countries, cities, states can adjust accordingly. Meanwhile Sweden with their small population, few outside visitors, large degree of solo living, less interaction with elderly is just not a model that we can reliably say works everywhere without having more data points.
Is this a joke? Sweden has a high level of migration, higher foreign trade than the United States and a population more willing to travel abroad than the United States.
And the size of the population has absolutely no influence on the spread of a virus.
> And yet despite all of the above, you will likely just call me a "lockdown" fanatic, and I'm killing millions by my relentless lockdown approach. Sigh.
I would rather call you a lockdown defender than a fanatic.
But the defenders are also responsible for this disaster. Without them, it wouldn't be possible to create the unfolding Greater Depression.
So massive global debt, massive poverty, and the Dow hitting near 30k wasn't a clue? The lockdown wasn't the cause, it was the excuse to pull off a pre-planned heist.
So massive global debt, massive poverty, and the Dow hitting near 30k wasn't a clue? The lockdown wasn't the cause, it was the excuse to pull off a pre-planned heist.
You can always argue like that. I do it since 1985. A state based system is doomed from the very beginning. But nobody knows which debt level will be the tipping point. The system learned to handle higher debt levels before it collapses.
That's what the experts predicted to Sweden. Exponential rise into disaster. They've been wrong, but you still make such unfunded claims? Flu viruses usually spread when people shelter and flee the sun into Vitamin D deficiency. That's what they are forced to do now.
I'm spending more time outside these days then ever. Do you think everyone works outdoors and now they can't? Most people work in office buildings, schools, etc. They work inside. When work is over they go home (aka indoors). Where I live people aren't "locked down" as you love to say. They go outside, play in the yard with their kids, walk, jog, , play golf, etc. I haven't seen anyone in this forum suggest house arrest or impose restrictions. Florida and California maybe where they closed beaches you have a case, but not most places.
In order to follow the Sweden "model" in a place like New York, you'd have to:
1) Show how children that are going to schools and inevitably will be exposed, have a low probability of spreading the disease to their parents.
But according to Drosten (Berlin), "children who test positive harbor just as much virus as adults do - sometimes more - and so, presumably, are just as infectious" . So you'd have to show that either this is incorrect, or that children in general are resistant to getting the disease at all, not just that they are asymptomatic. And this may well be the case, but I haven't seen definitive proof. New study being done to investigate this: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/study-determine-incidence-novel-coronavirus-infection-us-children-begins , I would argue that is long overdue. Sweden may have data to support this theory, by experimenting on their population, they likely have some decent results now.
2) Show how people that are highly susceptible , which sounds like a good portion of the population, lets say people over 50, or have other conditions, will not have their probability of infection increased by mingling at stores, restaurants, bars, going maskless, etc. Now in Sweden, maybe everyone at risk, just knows to stay home and does, and also they don't interact with younger folks. Also I suspect the rate of severe disease is naturally lower there do to general health and homogeneity of the population. I don't think you'll find that kind of uniformity elsewhere.
Basically, herd immunity is fantastic if you can pull it off. Take all the people that have low risk of severe disease, and say hey we want you to get this thing, go out, mingle, stand near each other, it won't really hurt you, just stay the fuck away from people 50 and up or with other risk factors including your parents.
Bottom, line. If everyone in the world right now just went out and hugged everyone else, the end result: yes herd immunity after some weeks, but also massive rate of people severely effected by the disease. You'd get the whole thing over with quickly, but final toll would be severe. This is what I think the Sweden model could lead to if it was attempted elsewhere, because not everywhere is like Sweden. Or then again, maybe the Swedes, just do want to get it all over with quickly and damn the consequences. They have 14th highest mortality rate of confirmed cases, they are 89th in Population rank.
You can always argue like that. I do it since 1985. A state based system is doomed from the very beginning. But nobody knows which debt level will be the tipping point. The system learned to handle higher debt levels before it collapses.
Well sure, my generation was influenced by Paul Erdman financial disaster books. But I subscribe to Chaos Magick theory of money and long ago called the 30k Dow to immanentize the eschaton. The pandemic is just a second flush for such a big turd of a system.
@Norway said:
"7 days prediction: Corona Collapsing, Bitcoin UP!"
@Zarathustra said:
"Yes, the flu season usually ends in April when people leave their homes where the transmission is greatest due to the low humidity in the rooms. Open windows, sun and fresh air cure the flu. Unfortunately, the forced quarantine is now delaying this."
@Bloomie said:
"You are an exceptionally malicious troll."
@Andrew Cuomo said:
"it’s ‘shocking’ most new coronavirus hospitalizations are people who had been staying home"
In order to follow the Sweden "model" in a place like New York, you'd have to:
1) Show how children that are going to schools and inevitably will be exposed, have a low probability of spreading the disease to their parents.
@Bertrand Russell said:
Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake.
@Andrew Cuomo said:
"it’s ‘shocking’ most new coronavirus hospitalizations are people who had been staying home"
Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake.
There is no "received dogma" here. People starting getting sick in droves, decisions were made about what to do about that. As this was a new disease few actions can be taken with 100% certainty that they are correct. Some decisions were based on good science, others on fear of sickness, and others on fear of being sued, some decisions were just a shot in the dark. Many decisions are in fact made by the people themselves not governments.
You can get lucky and take no action and have a good result, after all what are the odds this is "the bad one"? Let's just ride it out, right? Is that what the thinking is, just fuck it all and let's ignore everything. Wait until the glaciers are 100% gone, and global temperatures are sky rocketing. Do nothing.
The goal is to get closer to more science based, logical decisions, not just quipping that opening the windows cures the flu (and who is keeping the windows closed anyway?).
Defend, defend, defend. You, the fear porn cheerleaders are the ones who would have had to prove that the mortality rate at Princess Diamond, Iceland and other samples is data that is not enough to decide whether to lockdown the economy and send hundreds of million people into unimployment, suicide, famine, violence, Great Depression, war etc.; or not.
"it’s ‘shocking’ most new coronavirus hospitalizations are people who had been staying home"
(ignore, ignore, ignore)
> Wait until the glaciers are 100% gone, and global temperatures are sky rocketing. Do nothing.
We know since more than 100 years that infrared radiation is reflected by 'greenhouse' gases.
Oh, I forgot to answer to this bad joke:
> Bottom, line. If everyone in the world right now just went out and hugged everyone else, the end result: yes herd immunity after some weeks, but also massive rate of people severely effected by the disease.
Bla bla. Sweden and Japan don't suggest to hug everyone else and get herd immunity as fast as possible. They suggest to stop hug each other to get herd immunity as slow as possible, whithout creating collateral damage that is much more destructive than the virus.
You know this very well since it have been told to you several times. .
So fascinating that you think you have all the answers but all you want to do is tell everyone they are wrong, instead of trying to actually make a convincing case. Show me the model Sweden came up with to support their strategy. Better yet, apply that model to another country and have someone reputable post it. Maybe you'll gain some converts instead of just finding people that already agree with you.
So fascinating that you think you have all the answers but all you want to do is tell everyone they are wrong, instead of trying to actually make a convincing case. Show me the model Sweden came up with to support their strategy. Better yet, apply that model to another country and have someone reputable post it. Maybe you'll gain some converts instead of just finding people that already agree with you.
You have been told long ago that Sweden's Anders Tegnell (Man Of The Year) said from the very beginning that their strategy is not to prevent herd immunity by locking down the socionomy. Let herd immunity happen, it will come anyway, and this way the damage will be much less.
And guess what? He (representing common sense) was right and the majority (representing the opposite of common sense) was wrong. We are confronted with the Great Halvening of daily deaths in Stockholm, Sweden's New York.
Se Coronavirus spridning på varje kommun och region i Ålder och Kön. Uppdateras löpande. Kartor, siffor, diagram och grafer över Coronavirus i hela Sverige. Sjukdomsfall Intensivvårdsavdelning Dödsfall Friska Sjukhus c19 platz.se
Smittspridningen i Stockholm kan stanna av redan i juni, enligt professor Tom Brittons beräkningar. Även statsepidemiolog Anders Tegnell tror att det kan stämma
www.aftonbladet.se
Anders Tegnell, nominated as the Man Of The Year by Zara Zarathustra ...
What does all of this have to do with Gold (Collapsing?) and Bitcoin Up?
Well a lockdown of the world economy with several hundred millions of additional unemployed people will have a big impact on the demand for Gold and Bitcoin. The chancellors who are on the brink of another bailout of unprecedented proportions could have a great influence to the price of those two commodities.
Gold Up - Bitcoin SV UP!
@Bloomie: Nobody reads separate threads, but I try to reduce activity ...
And guess what? He (representing common sense) was right and the majority (representing the opposite of common sense) was wrong. We are confronted with the Great Halvening of daily deaths in Stockholm, Sweden's New York.
What it comes down to, is that for Sweden, a 50% shutdown (which is what they really have) == a NYC 80% shutdown. Because in NYC there is tons more interaction, mixing.
So basically everyone is already following the Sweden model, but they just took more active measures to get the same effect.
I support self enforced social distancing and distance learning in public schools for a trial period of 2-4 weeks. Businesses that just have people sitting in cubes all day should also tell everyone to work remotely for a while, others can hopefully adapt a bit as well. None of that means you have to run around crying "we're all going to die". Let's see if the spread can be slowed down and more data can shed new light on whether this kind of shutdown is helping or even necessary.
This site uses cookies to help personalize content, tailor your experience, and keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
