Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/segwit-full-proposal-bitcoin-politicking/

Looks like someone actually read the proposed User Requirements for the minimum viable fork!

And the author connected the dots to the contention around SegWit's soft-fork release, which is good, although not as important as the "blocks greater than the historical 1 million bytes, the limit that Satoshi placed as an anti-spam mechanism, not as a mechanism to limit bitcoin’s growth."

All in all, I'm hoping this will promote discussion around the fork requirements, even though the article could have provided a link to https://bitcoinforks.org to give some background on what this hard fork movement is about :)
 

adamstgbit

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2016
1,206
2,650


Looks like my Core Slack account was disabled. It's interesting because I feel I was starting to make some progress in opening up communication over there.

I get the feeling that most of the Core people are actually fairly reasonable. It's just a small subset that is scared of open communication. That small subset claims to want to stop trolling, but that's not true; they like trolling. What they are fighting against is open and friendly communication, especially if people start agreeing with some of the "big block" views.
not very surprising...

they NEED to do things like this in order to keep the discussion focused on Core related goals.
If they let you talk to everyone about 2MB Vs segwit, they might lose support from their own team!
they can't just let you do that...

i would hope you make a new account and just keep "trolling", for our benefit.
 

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
380
101
Jonny is merely moving on the asymptotic trajectory of Extreme Consensus, which starts at 51% and moves to 100% consensus and infinite grace period, i.e. no change ever.


I like that chart, please can you also add Gavin’s change onto this. He went from at least 6 months and preferably 12 months to 28 days. I still think he was right with his earlier view on the grace period.


Gavin Andresen in 2013 said:
It will require a hardfork and we are going to need to give people at least 6, 8 preferably 12 months to upgrade, so that they are ready for larger blocks

Source:
 
Last edited:

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088

(We are forking Bitcoin)​

Chinese translations of website now available. Great thanks to @KoKansei for the effort.

Discussion thread at https://www.reddit.com/r/btcfork/comments/51wfh3/我们要对比特币进行分叉_chinese_translations_now_available/

Simplified Chinese version available at:
https://proxy1.zn.kindlyfire.me/bitcoinforks.bit/zh/

Traditional Chinese version available at:
https://proxy1.zn.kindlyfire.me/bitcoinforks.bit/zh_HK/

@Jihan , @LightningHuang : any review comments or questions appreciated!

(image from messing about with http://www.chinese-tools.com/tools/calligraphy.html)
 
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awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
Destruction of the meta-consensus

Hey guys,

been (and still am) busy doing other stuff than Bitcoin. I have to feed
myself, among other things...

I have heard that people are working on a deliberate chain fork. I have also
heard that the plan is to activate coincident with SegWit activation.

I have to say, I like this approach, a lot!

Because it finishes and eventually lays bare the destruction of the
meta-consensus that has been started by Core's underhanded tactics.

The destruction of the meta consensus, and by meta consensus I mean the former
consensus about the rules on how to make rules, has been deliberately,
underhandedly, and manipulativly attacked by Core, yielding progressive
destruction.

Much like your typical, psychopathic, always bitching drama queen secretly
ruling your typical anarchist/feminist/socialist/whateverist 'alternative'
project (shared housing, occupy this and that and so forth) by insisting on an
ever-changing definition of consensus, the Core team has manipulated many in
the Bitcoin system to follow their idiocy. (And in the case of the
'alternative counter-culture projects', the way to win is simply not to
play. With Bitcoin, this kind of consensus-bullshit was introduced only
later...)

Activating a hard fork on SegWit activation lays bare the destruction of
meta consensus done by Core.

In former times, we had various gentlemen agreements in place, such as:

- Bitcoin can scale to VISA levels and the Satoshi white paper gives the
general direction
- 51% hash power majority selects the direction of Bitcoin
- Miners can vote on fork bits

All those were not baked - or only to a small extend - into the software
reality of the Bitcoin software. They were only agreements between reasonable
people. But of course, those agreements do not work between unreasonable
people!

By twisting words, shifting focus, and all the other methods from your
typical propaganda handbook, Core destroyed this meta consensus, along with
also destroying the formerly healthy Bitcoin community.

We all know examples of the attacks, working against the above meta
consensus. A far-from-exhaustive list:

- Bitcoin was never meant to scale to VISA levels (the classic 'repeat a lie
often enough and it becomes true')

- the soft-/hard fork distinction

- the 90%, 95%, ..., 99% 'consensus' talk

- confusing technical Nakamoto consensus (longest chain) with political
consensus

The last bit that remained of the meta consensus is an agreement upon the
meaning of fork bits. (By the way: Or is it remaining? Wasn't there actually a
re-interpretation by Core of some of the BIP109 bits already?)

Core and their followers like to say that 'Bitcoin is ruled by math' and that
'the software defines the consensus', yet the meta consensus about fork bits
is silently accepted when they cherish the utopia that is SegWit-activated
Bitcoin in their minds.

Making activation of bigger blocks coincident with SegWit is destroying this
last bit of meta consensus. Core will no doubt argue that those who do so 'are
unfairly muddying the waters' and/or that there is some kind of meta consensus
in place (regardless on how ridiculous that sounds) that 'Core is the
consensus implementation, and so Core's fork bit interpretation is right'.

It is applying the same tactics that Core used for so long and slings them
right back at them.

Because SegWit is a change that core wants, and it serves them right that
their own tactics are starting to backfire.

Core can no longer evade and apply the soft-/hard fork distraction, nor can
they push SegWit and successfully argue that it is somehow non-controversial.

The much feared ossification of Bitcoin (AFAIR our beloved Adam Back was
one of those fearing it) is thus accelerated.

However, I am certain that ossification at this level and with the 1MB
ridiculousness in place can not last forever.

And simple majority considerations will be the only path out of this quagmire.

Exactly what most reasonable big-block proponents have said since the
beginning should be the modus operandi for decision making.

And in any case, with any fork, the earlier Bitcoin ledger is preserved. That
is what any long-term Bitcoin holder cares about, in the end. I can only see
that happening with a high-volume ledger, and such a fork - successful in the
end or not - will increase the likelihood of that result.

--

That all said, let me finally also congratulate everyone to the funding of BU and
towards making this a non-profit org!

I really have to do some catch up now with all the news. Also, @solex, I got
your PMs. Let me first and foremost say that you (and everyone else around BU) is
doing an absolutely awesome job.

I unfortunately won't be at any conference any time soon.

--

And after skimming through the last couple dozen pages on this thread:

@Justus Ranvier : I think the defense against a soft fork is exactly as
above. 'Escalate' it to a hard fork and thus show how ridiculous the whole
idea of separating soft-/ and hard-fork is anyways.

@freetrader: Nice observation, your consensus level graph :)
 

cliff

Active Member
Dec 15, 2015
345
854
-------------------------------------
Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP!
-------------------------------------
BTC | XAU (spot) | COMEX CG1
$621.21| $1333.62 | $1336.40
-------------------------------------
BTCswap(BFX) | BTCswap(Polo)
0.0409 % | 0.0733 %
-------------------------------------
HashRate: 1.6 EH/s
MarketCap: $9,866,572,335
-------------------------------------
GBTC | SPDR Gold Trust ETF
$96.3 | $127.15
-------------------------------------
10YR Treas| Copper | Crude (WTI)
1.54% | $209.25/lb | $46.71/barrel
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------

Some arrests yesterday - 2 hackers from North Carolina - part of the CWA (“Cracka’s with Attitude”) (also here) and/or L0sExtraditable [mirror] crews. They used various aliases.


https://twitter.com/Lorde_Bashtien http://archive.is/W3onI

https://twitter.com/_d3f4ult http://archive.is/HJCcU

https://twitter.com/Sh1n0d4 http://archive.is/wvxdr

-----
Bonus - https://twitter.com/_L0m1s
-----

These folks likely align w/ the small blocker crowd and may have done some dirty work to support that cause.



----
Additionally, they be into drugs, orgies, hacking planes, and generally causing mayhem [mirror].

I’m really impressed, though. Despite being extremely busy, they still found time to stay in shape.


These folks are not unknown. They’ve hacked various government officials and have had many articles written about them.


Check their twitter profiles, who they follow and who follows them. You might see that they’ve crossed paths with some of the 2016 weirdness in Bitcoinland.
 
Last edited:

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
Destruction of the meta-consensus

Hey guys,

been (and still am) busy doing other stuff than Bitcoin. I have to feed
myself, among other things...

I have heard that people are working on a deliberate chain fork. I have also
heard that the plan is to activate coincident with SegWit activation.

I have to say, I like this approach, a lot!

Because it finishes and eventually lays bare the destruction of the
meta-consensus that has been started by Core's underhanded tactics.

The destruction of the meta consensus, and by meta consensus I mean the former
consensus about the rules on how to make rules, has been deliberately,
underhandedly, and manipulativly attacked by Core, yielding progressive
destruction.

Much like your typical, psychopathic, always bitching drama queen secretly
ruling your typical anarchist/feminist/socialist/whateverist 'alternative'
project (shared housing, occupy this and that and so forth) by insisting on an
ever-changing definition of consensus, the Core team has manipulated many in
the Bitcoin system to follow their idiocy. (And in the case of the
'alternative counter-culture projects', the way to win is simply not to
play. With Bitcoin, this kind of consensus-bullshit was introduced only
later...)

Activating a hard fork on SegWit activation lays bare the destruction of
meta consensus done by Core.

In former times, we had various gentlemen agreements in place, such as:

- Bitcoin can scale to VISA levels and the Satoshi white paper gives the
general direction
- 51% hash power majority selects the direction of Bitcoin
- Miners can vote on fork bits

All those were not baked - or only to a small extend - into the software
reality of the Bitcoin software. They were only agreements between reasonable
people. But of course, those agreements do not work between unreasonable
people!

By twisting words, shifting focus, and all the other methods from your
typical propaganda handbook, Core destroyed this meta consensus, along with
also destroying the formerly healthy Bitcoin community.

We all know examples of the attacks, working against the above meta
consensus. A far-from-exhaustive list:

- Bitcoin was never meant to scale to VISA levels (the classic 'repeat a lie
often enough and it becomes true')

- the soft-/hard fork distinction

- the 90%, 95%, ..., 99% 'consensus' talk

- confusing technical Nakamoto consensus (longest chain) with political
consensus

The last bit that remained of the meta consensus is an agreement upon the
meaning of fork bits. (By the way: Or is it remaining? Wasn't there actually a
re-interpretation by Core of some of the BIP109 bits already?)

Core and their followers like to say that 'Bitcoin is ruled by math' and that
'the software defines the consensus', yet the meta consensus about fork bits
is silently accepted when they cherish the utopia that is SegWit-activated
Bitcoin in their minds.

Making activation of bigger blocks coincident with SegWit is destroying this
last bit of meta consensus. Core will no doubt argue that those who do so 'are
unfairly muddying the waters' and/or that there is some kind of meta consensus
in place (regardless on how ridiculous that sounds) that 'Core is the
consensus implementation, and so Core's fork bit interpretation is right'.

It is applying the same tactics that Core used for so long and slings them
right back at them.

Because SegWit is a change that core wants, and it serves them right that
their own tactics are starting to backfire.

Core can no longer evade and apply the soft-/hard fork distraction, nor can
they push SegWit and successfully argue that it is somehow non-controversial.

The much feared ossification of Bitcoin (AFAIR our beloved Adam Back was
one of those fearing it) is thus accelerated.

However, I am certain that ossification at this level and with the 1MB
ridiculousness in place can not last forever.

And simple majority considerations will be the only path out of this quagmire.

Exactly what most reasonable big-block proponents have said since the
beginning should be the modus operandi for decision making.

And in any case, with any fork, the earlier Bitcoin ledger is preserved. That
is what any long-term Bitcoin holder cares about, in the end. I can only see
that happening with a high-volume ledger, and such a fork - successful in the
end or not - will increase the likelihood of that result.

--

That all said, let me finally also congratulate everyone to the funding of BU and
towards making this a non-profit org!

I really have to do some catch up now with all the news. Also, @solex, I got
your PMs. Let me first and foremost say that you (and everyone else around BU) is
doing an absolutely awesome job.

I unfortunately won't be at any conference any time soon.

--

And after skimming through the last couple dozen pages on this thread:

@Justus Ranvier : I think the defense against a soft fork is exactly as
above. 'Escalate' it to a hard fork and thus show how ridiculous the whole
idea of separating soft-/ and hard-fork is anyways.

@freetrader: Nice observation, your consensus level graph :)
Good to see you @awemany I fully support this message. I haven't been following the r/btcfork news however timing the block limit fork with segwit activation is the way to go for just the reasons awemany outlined.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
@HelloGuy : are you user "hello_guy" on the BU slack?

@awemany: Nice to see you back here - and an excellent post. I am sure @Zarathustra shares my appreciation for it - it reminds us that the False Gods (Idols) in the realm of Consensus / Meta-Consensus will have their Twilight (dusk), and sometimes a little philosophizing with a hammer (breaking down misconceptions and deliberate falsehoods) is needed most.
 
Last edited:

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
I like that chart, please can you also add Gavin’s change onto this. He went from at least 6 months and preferably 12 months to 28 days. I still think he was right with his earlier view on the grace period.
Advocating 6 months to a year in 2013 was a very different proposition than advocating it now after years of bad faith stalling tactics from a completely unqualified self-appointed priesthood.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
From the I-got-trolled-good department, courtesy of /u/jratcliff63367 :

Hard fork vs. SideChain

Sounds like an interesting topic for /r/btc? I thought so.
Here is the premise, posted by him:
Why does anyone think launching a hard-fork of the bitcoin network is a 'good idea'?

It is essentially just an alt-coin with a massive premine in the form of assigning all of the tokens on the new network to the same UTXO set of the old network.

However, it will be a new token. It will create chaos and confusion in the marketplace. People will have no idea how to distinguish and separate their multiple wallets against multiple networks and no payment providers will support it.

We will suffer through yet one more round of overwhelming bad press and a massive market correction as no one knows how the chaos will resolve.

Meanwhile, all of the time and energy being invested in a hard-fork could instead be spent on creating a robust sidechain which is pegged directly to value on the main bitcoin network.

It's like the community wants to shoot itself in foot to spite it's face. Such a completely destructive and counter productive use of time and resources.

A sidechain could bring the entire community back-together, as everyone would still be using the same token, but with one network dedicated to providing the highest level of a security possible and the second network focused on high volume, low-fee, transaction throughput.

This is such a monumental waste of time and counterproductive exercise. Especially, when there is a clear technological path forward where everyone could achieve the same shared goals but, instead, we sow chaos, discord, and fracture the ecosystem to the detriment of all.
Note, in particular, the "time and energy being invested" argument.

So, quite a few of us spend time and energy educating him on the thread:
http://archive.is/TwqrT

He decides the thread is being brigaded (instead of downvoted for ignorance), and removes the entire conversation.

I rest my case.

UPDATE: public mod logs shows he restored the post ... better late than never to have a change of heart.
 
Last edited:

solex

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 22, 2015
1,558
4,693
In 2013 the block limit could have been increased with 2 years grace period and 90% threshold. It is the relentless Todd/Maxwell/Freidenbach FUD-storm which created and perpetuated the split which means even 75% threshold is a big ask nowadays. Further, the time is now zero because blocks are full and the network effect is stalled - as we said would happen back in 2013.
 

cliff

Active Member
Dec 15, 2015
345
854
@freetrader - I mean, I get his point - its not totally illogical or w/o merit, but I do think it assumes too much:

1. The same argument about time and energy cuts both ways - the drama doesn't have to exist if Core agrees to a hardfork. The existence of a conflict is the result of the relevant parties being in disagreement. Either side could end it by agreeing to the other side's position. Likewise, both sides could end the stalemate by working together, which would probably require both sides giving up something they want - that's the cost of finding a Nash Equilibrium.

2. It assumes an all or nothing solution is the correct path, but an all or nothing approach is a non-starter and unrealistic (like in most places). I sometimes wonder to what extent that's known (and for how long).

3. The foot shooting goes both ways too - by not following their users or trying to work with them honestly, Core is shooting themselves in the foot.

4. "Altcoin" is just propaganda. That has to stop along with insults and back-handed verbal jabs. No compromise can happen w/o mutual respect. This will require all sides agreeing that the trolling has to stop/taking a stand against it.

5. The post assumes a non-poisoned well. Censorship, smear campaigns, and complicity w/ DDoSing etc. probably burned too many bridges at this point. Core will have to show a monumental good faith gesture to earn back some credibility if they want to avoid a non-core hardfork.
 
Last edited:

theZerg

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 28, 2015
1,012
2,327
BU "nol" (nolimit) network is having no problems with 12MB blocks... :)

Status: active, height: 16471, length: 0, work: 3f801580157feb8
Block -0
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 20:18:40 Height: 16471 Size: 11999048 NumTx: 44751 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 0000000000000cc91426f93901c049f82b20952f6f31d4397fc8919d83c78f6c
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 19:44:02 Height: 16470 Size: 11999087 NumTx: 45960 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 000000000000d2252c3835a2e3cd7c77fee5a189f3915107dbf7189ce4301368
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 18:56:17 Height: 16469 Size: 11999069 NumTx: 46424 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 0000000000003eb22ea50519efee6bb35d541b078e6edbf7fa51e2a9af15f784
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 17:51:12 Height: 16468 Size: 11999066 NumTx: 39996 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 000000000000b9232dc7bba54228a26e9bab5ae48dcf8a91c875bbe03e91ab0f
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 16:20:47 Height: 16467 Size: 11999142 NumTx: 46873 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 0000000000005f6bb6e870b80f6468135109b613b5c48952092afc607e6e17d9
--- Date: 2016-09-09 14:38:24 Height: 16466 Size: 999086 NumTx: 3443 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 0000000000004101affb444ad5a5be59409aa7f9dcdcaa1909560370441c73f2
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 12:31:26 Height: 16465 Size: 13915476 NumTx: 56278 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 0000000000003fac7aa2b152c4d23e40c7ab2af38af544b230e0c52f2cd61b20
 

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
380
101
In 2013 the block limit could have been increased with 2 years grace period and 90% threshold. It is the relentless Todd/Maxwell/Freidenbach FUD-storm which created and perpetuated the split which means even 75% threshold is a big ask nowadays.
Yes I am aware you guys only have around 5% support, half of which is a mining entity in liquidation. You appear to have failed to spot the irony here. The reason you only have 5% is because miners dislike the 75% threshold and specifically asked for 90%. Do you not understand that the higher the threshold the easier it will be to get miner support? Hopefully after the DAO wars the opinions of the miners have changed and I hope they no longer think 90% is sufficient.

Further, the time is now zero because blocks are full and the network effect is stalled - as we said would happen back in 2013.
I think it is very clear from what Gavin was saying that at least 6 months was needed when doing a hard fork to allow users to upgrade. He was not saying the hardfork had to happen in less than 6 months to prevent blocks being full, in the quoted sentence. You appear to be confusing different time periods.
[doublepost=1473482887][/doublepost]
Advocating 6 months to a year in 2013 was a very different proposition than advocating it now after years of bad faith stalling tactics from a completely unqualified self-appointed priesthood.
I am not saying its necessarily wrong to change your mind. I changed mine based on the DAO wars. I'm just saying it may be good to put it on the chart
 

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
@HelloGuy : are you user "hello_guy" on the BU slack?

@awemany: Nice to see you back here - and an excellent post. I am sure @Zarathustra shares my appreciation for it
Indeed, and not just me. It is the top post on the uncensored Bitcoin sub on reddit.

- it reminds us that the False Gods (Idols) in the realm of Consensus / Meta-Consensus will have their Twilight (dusk), and sometimes a little philosophizing with a hammer (breaking down misconceptions and deliberate falsehoods) is needed most.
Yes.

Article V. — Eating at the same table with the priests of the Blocked Stream Church ostracizes: one is excommunicated from honest society by doing so.

That's why we will fork away from those people as far as possible. There is no such thing as an extreme consensus with totalitarian traitors. Not even a small one.
 
BU "nol" (nolimit) network is having no problems with 12MB blocks... :)

Status: active, height: 16471, length: 0, work: 3f801580157feb8
Block -0
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 20:18:40 Height: 16471 Size: 11999048 NumTx: 44751 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 0000000000000cc91426f93901c049f82b20952f6f31d4397fc8919d83c78f6c
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 19:44:02 Height: 16470 Size: 11999087 NumTx: 45960 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 000000000000d2252c3835a2e3cd7c77fee5a189f3915107dbf7189ce4301368
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 18:56:17 Height: 16469 Size: 11999069 NumTx: 46424 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 0000000000003eb22ea50519efee6bb35d541b078e6edbf7fa51e2a9af15f784
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 17:51:12 Height: 16468 Size: 11999066 NumTx: 39996 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 000000000000b9232dc7bba54228a26e9bab5ae48dcf8a91c875bbe03e91ab0f
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 16:20:47 Height: 16467 Size: 11999142 NumTx: 46873 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 0000000000005f6bb6e870b80f6468135109b613b5c48952092afc607e6e17d9
--- Date: 2016-09-09 14:38:24 Height: 16466 Size: 999086 NumTx: 3443 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 0000000000004101affb444ad5a5be59409aa7f9dcdcaa1909560370441c73f2
--- ** Date: 2016-09-09 12:31:26 Height: 16465 Size: 13915476 NumTx: 56278 Ver: 30000000 Hash: 0000000000003fac7aa2b152c4d23e40c7ab2af38af544b230e0c52f2cd61b20
Does Unlimited have its own testnet now? ...

And, in my eyes most importantly, do you have some calculation about the increase of time to set up a new node?
 
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