Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

BldSwtTrs

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Maybe thinking about the way Internet currently works, and interact with legal systems, is helpful to understand the future of Bitcoin.
Court orders regarding Internet don't act at the TCP/IP level. They don't prevent the diffusion of information. They only target entities using information contained within the TCP/IP protocol.

But maybe this analogy is flawed because, unlike TCP/IP, with Bitcoin it is possible to legally target specific transactions and addresses, and to enforce it through mineurs. Maybe for Internet it's only a matter of practicality (laws don't act at the protocol level, ie. TCP/IP, because it is not possible to do so).
 
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trinoxol

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@BldSwtTrs, exactly! Crime is not prevented by requiring network operators to intercept or change data. Rather, law enforcement tries to gain access to the equipment used by criminals. Requiring telcos worldwide to manipulate traffic at the whim of a court is not a good model.

TCP is neutral.

If this restriction leads to a certain fraction of criminals escaping that is a small price to pay for having a neutral worldwide utility infrastructure. So much good can come out of having a physically neutral money! (y)

Yes, it is a matter of practicality. Compelling miners to alter the protocol (and yes, it does alter the protocol) threatens consensus which is a key foundation of the whole system.
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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Yes, coordination is hard, but not impossible.

Liberty Reserve has been shut down, because there actually is a one world government.

Global society is a fractal organism. A municipality in Switzerland has its own law, but not independently of the higher cantonal law, because a Canton has more power (PoW) than a municipality.

A Canton in Switzerland has its own laws, but not independently of the higher federal law, because the Republic has more power (PoW) than a Canton.

The Republic Switzerland has its own laws, but not independently of the higher European law, because the European Continent has more power (PoW) than the Republic of Switzerland.

Europe has its own laws, but not independently of higher international laws such as the Vienna Convention/FATF etc., because the worldwide society has more power (PoW) than the European continent.

From the municipality, however, the fractal structure also goes downwards, to the clan, to the family, to the individual, to the organ, to the cell, to the molecule, to the atom, to the electron etc.

Unwriter says 'everything is a file'. I say, everything is an Organism.
yes, and in all your examples the size is the same; small. as is Monero.
[doublepost=1581693261][/doublepost]in all the above discussion examples, the key factor is scale. BSV is the only sha256 implementation poised to scale via tx volume to billion of users. with that comes immutability.
 

AdrianX

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Not only that, but BSV's financier is pleading with users not to create too many transactions.

The. Irony.
@freetrader, there is reality, and then there is the perceived reality. There are objectives, and then there are means to those objectives if you want to live in a free world, you need to measure reality empirically. One is not free when one believes reality is what others project.

Assess their claims understand their position empirically with empathy and move on.

We're forging a new path, those leading the way throw shit on the wall and see what sticks, even project mass delusions into the minds of people and so long as you play by the rules they're left to their own devices. BTC is full of ”thought leaders,” BCH and BSV are not immune.

When you zoom out enough, like @Zangelbert Bingledack identified,
on the macros scale, we're in an anarchist world, not the form of anarchy where no-one is in control, but one where absolute power gives one the ability to ignore the rules. Bitcoin is a new set of rules that can encourage cooperation on a macro scale.

Everyone has an agenda. If you want to walk among those who are free, you need to learn to empathise and understand their positions. Throwing shit on the wall to see what sticks or believing in or even projecting a delusion does not create reality, even if it's one's own feeble delusion.
 
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AdrianX

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People will learn the difference between privacy and anonymity the easy way by listening to Satoshi, or the hard way:
I'd say you don't need to listen. You need to understand. I think many know even if it's just instinctively why mixing coins with intent to obfuscate crime is a terrible idea, and doing it in ignorance is also a bad idea.

Those building such systems are practically protesting what should and should not be considered criminal. They fail to zoom out to see the ramifications of how such ideas at scale.

Being in support of mixing is practically agreeing that the majority criminal activity should benefit criminals, and those wronged should be deprived of tools to recover stolen property.

Even International Law which allows some to kill in cold blood when they follow the existing international protocols, does not set a very high bar when it comes to forging a future that encourages sustainable global cooperation.

When people stop trading across borders bullets soon follow. If Bitcoin is ever leveraged to force unjust legislation as agreed by the majority of miners tyranny will soon follow.
 

BldSwtTrs

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Zangelbert Bingledack

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Bitcoin can only be adopted worldwide if it is neutral.
You're raising good questions that help me explain this better.

Here I'd suggest to you that Bitcoin is the most neutral money that has ever existed, because it conforms with and harmonizes with long-inured principles of international law more than any money ever has. What is more, it even has a mechanism for further harmonization with international law should such a pressing need ever arise. I suggest it is more neutral than gold, even, which is divisive due to tracing issues (and would be moreso if only it were used more).
Geopolitically, the world is very divided. The USA, Russa and China are true adversaries in many ways.
That's the beauty of Bitcoin. These adversaries are unlikely to agree on anything except what is universally abhorent. Meanwhile, Bitcoin as neutral money makes anyone not using it an economic cripple. It incentivizes use and leverages countries' inability to agree to great effect to ensure its monetary properties are kept maximally intact. (But understand that in any society money is a legal construct as well as an economic one.)
International politics decided through hash wars?
A preponderance of countries will either reverse a few transactions from major human trafficking rings on chain, or do nothing on chain. If there isn't enough agreement, nothing happens and it's just Bitcoin as usual (where it can still look like "code is law," merely because Bitcoin code fits so well into the contours of law). If there is, there are no wars or politics as they reached agreement. If there is some minority government that disagrees, their choices are to use Bitcoin as international law prescribes, or don't use Bitcoin and be crippled economically. Not much to fight about.

Again this only happens (if ever) in the situation where something is so universally reviled by custom that a majority of these highly divergent governments from vastly different cultures all agree.

As John Hasnas says, "Customary law is coercive, but it isn't a vehicle for domination of some parties by others." Minority dissenters getting squelched on issues around universally abhorrent practices does not constitute a mechanism for Bitcoin to be used as a tool for some countries to push others around in general.

I hope that makes some sense. It's a subtle distinction I first learned when reading Hasnas's great essay The Depoliticization of Law. Took me a while to get my head around.

Note also, all this I am mentioning isn't a proposal; it's an observation. Even if we wanted it to be otherwise, it could not be.
For example, the US could never allow large parts of the US economy to start using Chinese money services. If that were to happen, the Chinese could shut down access or seize money at any moment. No money solution run by any single government can ever become the world currency.
Yes, this is exactly what Bitcoin stops. It stops whims of single governments. It stops the politicking around money. It removes power centers from having control over money, by forcing their only control to consist in being in agreement with most of their rivals and simultaneously competing with them economically. Since ONLY what is universally abhorrent can have any hope of inducing agreement to mess with the chain, and only in the most limited of ways (if ever), it takes away the levers of power over money.

Again I suggest it's the most neutral money that has ever existed, perhaps the most neutral money possible. It forces governments to compete on economics, not politicking around money. Again a subtle point that took me a while to get.

I realize I'm laying a ton out at once here, so I don't take ongoing disagreement as anything unexpected or bad. If this were me of a year ago I'd be raising all the same objections, and probably more vehemently.
Repossessing a UTXO is a rule change. I hope we can agree on this term. Different nodes with different rules diverge to different chains. That's a chain split and a hard fork.
Well let's take a look specifically at what happens:

1) A sends coins to B by signing digitally.

2) Bunch of high courts send those coins to C by signing on paper.

3) In both cases, miners record all legally signed transactions into the ledger, like always.

I suspect the above will seem strange, so let's step back for a moment. What do miners do? They don't send coins. Users, as legal entities, do that. (This is the P2P user network, the outer layer of two P2P networks that comprise the mandala network that is Bitcoin (the inner P2P network is miners).)

To see what I mean in an example, imagine a merchant hands you a transaction template (like in BIP70) and you sign it and hand it back. At that point, legally, the coins belong to the merchant. Even if the merchant never pushes the tx to the mining network! Yes you still retain control of the coins if the tx is unpushed, but you don't retain legal ownership.

Miners merely record the fact that the transaction was duly signed, as far as they know legally signed under international law, on the ledger.

A transaction signature by a bunch of global courts is not just a legal Bitcoin signature "as far as the miners know"; it is in fact a legal Bitcoin signature without any possible doubt.
As the jurisdiction of the Bitcoin contract to which miners are a party (as agents) is international. Their signed transaction is at least equal to, if not more legitimate a Bitcoin transaction than any signed with a private key. The judges' joint signature fits into the chain of digital signatures like any other. Bitcoin is a proxy for international law; international law is international law. Its status is equal to or greater than its proxy.

Basically a sig with privkey is analogous to your lawyer signing for you, whereas a sig by a global collection of high courts is analogous to you signing for yourself. It'd be topsy-turvy to suggest your lawyer signing on your behalf is more legit that you signing directly.

If you see that the agents in Bitcoin (the miners) are bound to operate a proxy system whose purpose is to enforce international legal findings within the context and framework of the contract that is Bitcoin, you can see that it would likewise be topsy-turvy to suggest a Bitcoin sig with private key supersedes the ruling of the international legal finding that that signature is standing in for. Any contract specifies provisions the parties anticipatorily expect to be upheld in court. To see this, imagine you signed your name on a contract whose provisions you didn't expect the relevant courts to uphold. This would be a pointless thing to do, as the whole reason you sign a contract is to invoke law, which you know is ruled on by the relevant courts.

Unless maybe you never expected the other party to take you to court, which'd be similar to sending coins illegally but hoping it will be small enough to avoid court action. Often it may. But for huge amounts of money to the worst crime organizations (think child smuggling rings, which it should go without saying that all countries are vehemently against), this principle should make sense: the criminals are essentially signing a contract as if invoking international law, but doing so is pointless if it actually goes to a bunch of international courts as it'll be struck down if it does manage to get that far.

To think that code=law is to put the cart before the horse. Rather, the Bitcoin code attempts to be a perfect proxy for law.
But it is not necessary. Courts can require individuals and companies to pay. It's like cash. A court can require you to hand over a bag of cash and the police can raid your home and try to take the cash.
Yes, typically that's as far as it would go. Maybe always. I mentioned above that this is as much about making a point about how Bitcoin works in law as it is about observing what could happen if a bunch of global courts agree. The point is important to understand whether or not the specific example outcome is likely.

Thanks for a great discussion so far.
 
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BldSwtTrs

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Sep 10, 2015
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From what I am gathering about this mixer story, the distinction custodial/non-custodial is central for the scope of applicability of existing laws.


The Helix guy operated a custodial service, without a MSB license and with possible commercial links with darknet markets.
 

Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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International politics decided through hash wars? No thanks.

It's always like a hash war. PoW already decides international politics. Countries without economic power are not the influencers and creators of international politics. How else could it be?


@BldSwtTrs
> From what I am gathering about this mixer story, the distinction custodial/non-custodial is central for the scope of applicability of existing laws.

That's just the beginning. Do you think cashshuffle.com and wallets with built-in laundering service (mixers) will be allowed in the future?
 
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Norway

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I don't think there was a "HASH WAR" between BCH and BSV.

It was two cars racing in different directions with no goal line.
[doublepost=1581716352][/doublepost]But war is coming.
The victims will be young guys in grown up bodies sitting in a tree house trying to re-invent society. Lord of the flies kids, but older.
 

sgbett

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Aug 25, 2015
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It's always like a hash war. PoW already decides international politics. Countries without economic power are not the influencers and creators of international politics. How else could it be?
I was about to say exactly the same - how do we think international politics is currently decided, "hash" is merely a proxy for economic power.

I'm not really saying anything Z didn't already say, but I felt this was such an important point as to warrant re-iterating.
 

AdrianX

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The judges' joint signature fits into the chain of digital signatures like any other. Bitcoin is a proxy for international law; international law is international law. Its status is equal to or greater than its proxy.
While there is no precedent for this who do you think would build the tools to do this when the signatures on paper are signed?
 
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Norway

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This is a reference to @solex saying he would provide a financial report for BU last year:

We intend to publish a financial statement, and it will definitely be out this month. Ideally these can be repeated every six months, but as I point out, the current rules do not mandate any level of detail. Nevertheless, we have gone far beyond them in transparency already.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20200215004509/https://bitco.in/forum/threads/bu-transparency-improvement-proposal.24493/
[doublepost=1581727906][/doublepost]Local link: https://bitco.in/forum/threads/bu-transparency-improvement-proposal.24493/
 
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AdrianX

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Bitcoin sig with private key supersedes the ruling of the international legal finding that that signature is standing in for.
If the miners include the transaction in a block, this just puts the perpetrator in contempt, the courts would then pursue the new owner of the coins, they could order the miners to not process the coins, but they'd literally have to order every miner to do the same.

The idea that there could be universal agreement is ridiculous. I won't tolerate human trafficking, but neither will I tolerate a 3rd party determining guilt without a trial by law in all relevant jurisdictions. Just look at how the US has abused its influence, politicks trumps international law every time and especially when you have economic influence, the biggest army and nuclear weapons.
 

Norway

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Any member of any organization should kick out a president lying at this level.

@solex is using the donation money as he sees fit, while lying to members about transparency.
 

AdrianX

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think child smuggling rings, which it should go without saying that all countries are vehemently against)
If you have the evidence to prosecute child smuggling rings you have the information needed to shut them down. You don't need to fuck up the global money supply, just follow the money and arrest people.

The problem is people in power use human smuggling and rape as leverage to influence international law, you've got it backwards. the CIA and FBI call those ring leaders untouchable assets right up until they become liabilities.
 
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Norway

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BU has lost control over it's fundings. Nobody can tell you how much money is in the organization anymore. No receipts can be produced for spendings.

BU has been robbed, unless the opposite is proved.
[doublepost=1581728844][/doublepost]
 
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AdrianX

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I don't think there was a "HASH WAR" between BCH and BSV.

It was two cars racing in different directions with no goal line.
Nice, this just made me realize my concerns aired by @Zangelbert Bingledack have been put to bed. Say I have 30% of global hash, touch wood, it'll take a decade or two, but when I'll get there, and if I get one of these global edicts from TPTB, I'll comply but I won't spend energy undermining the 41% who ignore it, I'll do something else.
 
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