Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
Bitcoin is now Unlimited again. The BU community forked into an unlimited and a limited version. The unlimited (unfucked) version is represented by the majority of the GCBU activists, as always, and the limited (fucked) version is represented by the non-GCBU activists.
Unless it turns out that Craig is not Satoshi, the future is bright.
 

cypherblock

Active Member
Nov 18, 2015
163
182
Thank you @theZerg and @solex and @Peter R for paving the way. I am still very sad that you decided to not follow this path to its destination.
What's too bad is that the splits between BSV, BCH and BU were mostly personality based. Most of the BSV back to genesis changes seem fairly uncontroversial to me, with the exception that I think there would be fear of broadening the attack surface for a number of the changes.

* OP_RETURN changes seems like it will be useful in exiting from loops etc in some complex scripts
* Changing to Big Numbers, standard tech improvement
* Sunset P2SH: Not sure how BSV will present a QR code for complex scripts, I think this was one main purpose of P2SH. But I'm sure a workaround can be found.
* Restore nLockTime, nSequence and sunset CLTV, CSV : well, CLTV and CSV do seem like they are useful for some complex scripts and hash time locks. Maybe slightly controversial
* Complex transaction scripts allowed and other consensus checks removed: only reason to not have is for attack surface.
 

shilch

Member
Mar 28, 2019
54
216
Sunset P2SH: Not sure how BSV will present a QR code for complex scripts, I think this was one main purpose of P2SH. But I'm sure a workaround can be found.
It might be possible to construct a procedure where the sender of a payment signs the output script only knowing the hash and not the preimage. With SIGHASH_SINGLE this looks doable. But at the end, methods where the payer broadcasts a transaction aren't that future-proof anyway.

Restore nLockTime, nSequence and sunset CLTV, CSV : well, CLTV and CSV do seem like they are useful for some complex scripts and hash time locks. Maybe slightly controversial
The issue is that these make script validation depend on external state. It's possible that a script that hasn't been valid before suddenly becomes valid. This makes scaling harder.
 

79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
sunset CLTV, CSV
The issue is that these make script validation depend on external state. It's possible that a script that hasn't been valid before suddenly becomes valid. This makes scaling harder.
so these changes diminished risk.

* OP_RETURN changes seems like it will be useful in exiting from loops etc in some complex scripts
* Changing to Big Numbers, standard tech improvement
* Sunset P2SH: Not sure how BSV will present a QR code for complex scripts, I think this was one main purpose of P2SH. But I'm sure a workaround can be found.
* Restore nLockTime, nSequence and sunset CLTV, CSV : well, CLTV and CSV do seem like they are useful for some complex scripts and hash time locks. Maybe slightly controversial
* Complex transaction scripts allowed and other consensus checks removed: only reason to not have is for attack surface.
any specific attack in mind?

nchain wasted no time in identifying those and only those changes, and then in bringing them about, even when it seemed painful and unnecessary (e.g. w/ P2SH). this is evidence of their knowledge of and confidence in the original design.
 

trinoxol

Active Member
Jun 13, 2019
147
422
Germany
What's too bad is that the splits between BSV, BCH and BU were mostly personality based. Most of the BSV back to genesis changes seem fairly uncontroversial to me, with the exception that I think there would be fear of broadening the attack surface for a number of the changes.
Are you sure it's just personality?

If you look at the BCH roadmap (https://www.bitcoincash.org/roadmap.html) this is wildly incompatible with the idea of freezing the protocol.

The dissent about using an unlimited block size vs. an on-demand increase seems quite fundamental as well.

If you look at the recent Maxthon news... 670 million users could generate a number of transactions that BCH would not be willing to provide. At least not proactively. And without provably existing capacity Maxthon would not have done this step. Maxthon could never announce this on BTC because the second they release their product the chain becomes impractical to use.

And here we see that BSV is correct: Capacity must be provided proactively. Then, users will come.
 

trinoxol

Active Member
Jun 13, 2019
147
422
Germany
From Google:

> With offices in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong, Maxthon reaches a global community of users that tops more than 120,000,000 people each month in more than 150 countries.

From the press release:

> Since 2003, Maxthon has provided a state-of-the-art, multi-platform web browser that is one of the world's most popular – serving as the default browser for over 670 million users.

Not sure which of these is true.
 
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lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
4,290
What's too bad is that the splits between BSV, BCH and BU were mostly personality based.
I find this one of the most amusing (schadenfreude) failures in thinking i've ever witnessed. For a community with allegedly much higher than average levels of understanding in logic, math, economics and science to be so utterly swayed by POSM is almost unbelievable.

'The Crowd' can say what they like about Calvin, he puts his money and reputation where his mouth is.


The same for Craig and nChain. Spend an afternoon doing real research on him, to find what they are spending and creating, you'll quickly realise the truth - only proof of work matters in a POW system.

Just by simply watching actions and not words the direction is easy to follow.

The question, whether Craig is Satoshi or not, is now of little value, because Craig is > Satoshi. He's Satoshi with 10 more years of battle experience.


The nature of Bitcoin and its 'community' are such, that there comes a point in most everyones journey, where their ideology, politics, world view, job or ego comes into conflict with the truth of the timechain.

When that moment comes, not accepting it, will likely be very costly.
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
What protections are in place against a tx that takes a huge amount of time to validate?
The protections are innate to the design, they are economic, miners must weigh the potential reward against the risk and decide if it's worth including.

Parallel transaction validation is the mechanism by which you avoid the DoS vector. BU boldly claimed to be V 1.0 sometime back, after removing the limit. It may have been premature if paralell validation was missing at that time.

 
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shadders

Member
Jul 20, 2017
54
344
There are multiple queues for tx validation. Txs enter queues based on how familiar/safe a tx template looks to miners... A new tx type will end up in the slower queue and will never be in front of a payment or any other type of tx that is known to be fast to process and makes up the vast majority....
 

shadders

Member
Jul 20, 2017
54
344
No it was part of the previous Ark release... The classification mechanism is quite crude atm... But we will make it much more sophisticated...

What is part of genesis is miner configurable limits on tx validations times... Priority queue must meet isStandard criteria and validate in less than 5ms... Secondary queue within 1 second... We can make this much more granular and sophisticated... It ruins the malicious incentive to create long running txs without having to go down the road of implementing gas...
 

sgbett

Active Member
Aug 25, 2015
216
786
UK
That's marvellous, I hadn't realised it was already implemented (however crudely!)

I remember when I first heard you guys talking about parallel validation queues, I got really excited about it as it seemed such an elegant solution.

With the opcodes re-enabled there is so much that can be done. Amazing stuff!
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
Here again we get into a question of how much to baby the miners. The rougher the transaction sorting implementation they are gifted from nChain, the better of a screening mechanism it is and the more we'll see the effect where the intelligent, capable, on-the-ball, forward-thinking miners profit at the expense of those who are less so - and the network thereby gets relentlessly more intelligent. The more we scale, the more pronounced this winnowing and filtering effect becomes.

It's an issue of estimating Bitcoin's age in human years. 14? 18? 21? How much handholding is needed anymore, if any? More than handholding, I think we simply need clear and impactful explanation to the effect that Bitcoin is (i.e., the miners are) all grown up now and can&should now start to exploit each other's weaknesses even while cooperating. Coopetition. Some things will even become trade secrets.

If the mindset feels at all alien, get back into it by reading this:

https://old.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/99q4ke/socalled_poison_blocks_what_greg_maxwell_called/

Crypto "journalists" will try to spin every instance of the network getting smarter as a misstep, every instance of the laggards getting slapped as the network getting slapped. It's the opposite, but it doesn't matter if the crypto community gets it. Business understands failure as part of success, and when it's a group in a Stackelberg contest this is even more applicable. At worst any PR issue delays things, but the increase in the eliteness of the infrastructure continues all the while. Eventually it is too solid to ignore.

Basically BSV miners are hitting the gym hard regularly, and especially moreso after Genesis, while the others are still having everything handed to them on a silver platter, never having to get up from their couches. The honeybadger may look haggard coming home on some days, but it is getting stronger and stronger and ultimately even at its weakest it will be orders of magnitude more capable and robust than any others.

I say again, it is like a child eating dirt. The dirt trains their immune system. Maybe they even catch a cold or get a minor infection. Meanwhile the rest are kept in a sterilized environment with no immune challenges.

Or again, it is like a lean business sharpening itself daily under competition vs. a slack, bloated, indulgent state-granted monopoly.

All these analogies work because all these systems (mining, immunity, economy) are Hayekian spontaneous orders. The same antifragilistic dynamics apply. Not only does adversity strengthen, it is ultimately the only possible way to strengthen. And when your system is a fluid group competition, adversity means mistakes, losses, orphans, bankruptcies - for individual miners, not the system.

If a few miners are not messing up routinely, one could argue that the best thing to do would be to give them bad advice for free and see which ones take the bait and lose money. As long as the overall level of understanding is high enough that this merely culls the fools. However, I suspect there will be plenty of errors and natural failures to keep up, without having to inject any traps for the hapless. The game becomes ever harder as we go, as it must if Bitcoin is to professionalize into the backbone of the world's money system and Internet.
 
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freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
Congrats BSV'ers on your "Genesis" fork. No, seriously.
I was amused by Shadders' and Connolly's sycophantic post on bitcoinsv.io, as much as that is at all possible.
I see some voices in this thread and elsewhere claiming how BSV now aims to compete with Ethereum.
Ok, I'll have a look out for any signs of that :LOL::ROFLMAO:

You balked at the chance to add even a teeny bit more functionality in OP_CDS(V), and now BCH is getting better equipped every day, and is going to eat your lunch. I won't feel the least bit sorry for any of you as BCH (and the rest of cryptocurrency) leaves BSV behind.
Well, if you want to be called Bitcoin but this is a long game, and it won't be tested until we all know who is the author behind the pseudonym.
At least I know for sure who isn't Satoshi. The list keeps growing.
But please, keep studying (and producing) more fake scriptures, appeals to legal remedy, and excuses.
Someone will accurately write up Craig's part in history some day.
When that day has arrived, I might pick up that book from a shelf.

Until then, I will BUIDL (on BCH) and have fun scaling Bitcoin Cash with a great community that doesn't include the so-called "activists" in this thread.
[doublepost=1580891415,1580890801][/doublepost]
Finally the idea for which I joined bitcoin unlimited has materialized.
For those of you who genuinely feel like this, I am genuinely happy.
One of the most important features of Bitcoin is the ability to fork to resolve controversial disputes, and pursue your own destiny, on your own chain.
I will fight to keep it that way.
[doublepost=1580891587][/doublepost]
The nature of Bitcoin and its 'community' are such, that there comes a point in most everyones journey, where their ideology, politics, world view, job or ego comes into conflict with the truth of the timechain.

When that moment comes, not accepting it, will likely be very costly.
You mispelled "BitCoin".
[doublepost=1580891888][/doublepost]
Basically BSV miners are hitting the gym hard regularly, and especially moreso after Genesis, while the others are still having everything handed to them on a silver platter, never having to get up from their couches. The honeybadger may look haggard coming home on some days, but it is getting stronger and stronger and ultimately even at its weakest it will be orders of magnitude more capable and robust than any others.

I say again, it is like a child eating dirt. The dirt trains their immune system. Maybe they even catch a cold or get a minor infection. Meanwhile the rest are kept in a sterilized environment with no immune challenges.
These are some ridiculously funny advance excuses for the predictable service failures coming to SV.
Even by your standards, Zangelbert, this isn't competent propaganda.
Or again, it is like a lean business sharpening itself daily under competition vs. a slack, bloated, indulgent state-granted monopoly.
I guess you forgot which blockchain isn't aiming to feed at the trough of state granted monopolies.
(cough, patents, cough)

Long live the free market.
 
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Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
> I guess you forgot which blockchain isn't aiming to feed at the trough of state granted monopolies.
(cough, patents, cough)

Yes, we know, the chains of the pseudo-anarcho bolsheviki, the chain of those illiberal caricatures of freedom fighters, who are trying to tax the miners (BTC and BCH). The chains where the developers, miners and 'exchanges' BUIDL a cartel to destroy the design that was set in stone.

> Long live the free market.

The irony. The free shit army, that tries to tax the miners. Freedom is relative. Property whitout state guarantee is not property. It's possession at best. Your 'freedom' is the freedom of a Somalia-/Afghanistan style market. There you'll find possession, but not property. The freedom of having nothing left to lose.
 
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shadders

Member
Jul 20, 2017
54
344
Wow FT... That's a lot of salt even for you. We don't need to add new op codes. Now that script is unlocked and freely able to be used we can do OP_CDS and many other things IN script without creating a new pet op code everytime.

Please go ahead and keep on building, its more productive that what you do here or on twitter.
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
Until then, I will BUIDL (on BCH) and have fun scaling Bitcoin Cash with a great community that doesn't include the so-called "activists" in this thread.
you BUIDL BCH, BCH? can you link me to a commit? last one I see is from Dec 2017. and no, I will not accept a hash.