Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

pekatete

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Jun 1, 2016
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How I interpret his remark is that this process shouldn't go too fast, because that would create a lot of resentment, leading to friction (and possibly war).
What exactly amounts to "too fast adoption"? Would half the connected world's economically active population be a realistic target to aim for during the "constipation" stage to avoid wars et al? Anyone making such sweeping statements would be expected to put out an estimate of the tipping point, if they are to be taken seriously.

By the way, it also depends what kind of war he anticipates. If it is an ASIC / hashing power war, then that is bitcoin by design, stupid!
 

Andre#

New Member
Mar 13, 2016
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What exactly amounts to "too fast adoption"?
No idea, but I guess when it leads to a concerted effort to kill Bitcoin, then it would be too fast. I don't think that's such a strange line of thinking. In fact, in 2013 during the US Senate hearings I thought that as well. That's why I sold all my BTC just before the hearings, because I wasn't so sure the conclusions would be as positive as they turned out to be. (After the hearings, I bought back everything.)

Bitcoin is very disruptive. Thinking that all late comers will shrug their shoulders and accept their bad luck is a bit naive.

Would half the connected world's economically active population be a realistic target to aim for during the "constipation" stage to avoid wars et al? Anyone making such sweeping statements would be expected to put out an estimate of the tipping point, if they are to be taken seriously.
That's perhaps the reason he didn't come forward with this argument in the first place. He can't estimate a tipping point. I think that's why he presented this only now as "an interesting thought" at a meeting behind closed doors.
 
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pekatete

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No idea, but I guess when it leads to a concerted effort to kill Bitcoin, then it would be too fast. I don't think that's such a strange line of thinking.
For the rest of us mere mortals to validate his musings, we'd need to know where we are at in the present moment and what the maximum theoretically possible adoption is, then we can estimate what the rate of adoption is by observing network metrics thus ascertaining whether adoption is "too fast" (as if that can ever be a bad thing).

I suppose he must have historical data that he's based his interesting thoughts behind closed doors. Just to remind him, this is bitcoin. And yes, it is a completely strange line of thinking.

In fact, in 2013 during the US Senate hearings I thought that as well. That's why I sold all my BTC just before the hearings, because I wasn't so sure the conclusions would be as positive as they turned out to be. (After the hearings, I bought back everything.)
Well, you were proved wrong one time, I am sure you'll be proved wrong on the same issue a second time.
 

jonny1000

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Nov 11, 2015
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That fork is also supposed to be incompatible. Its like I spend hours on this forum and must of you have no idea what I am talking about or what my point is. If you do not understand my point, please just say. I promise you my points are very reasonble, please stop assuming I am saying something which I am not. @freetrader clearly has not understood my points.

This is very frustrating.
 

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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I forgot to mention that there's a collaborative translation effort for the bitcoinforks.org website underway at

https://www.transifex.com/bitcoinforksorg/

More details in my Reddit post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btcfork/comments/4wj53u/looking_for_translators_of_the_fork_website/

I know lots of you folks here have language skills that could be put to *very* good use in assisting the translation efforts (Japanese, anyone :) ).

Any inputs from those familiar with web design on how to make the site nicely multi-lingual would also be most appreciated by the project. Shoot us a mail / PM here / Reddit PM or contact on IRC to get in touch.

Shout out to the Spanish and Italian translators who have stepped up so far. We look forward to having your work online asap!
 
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cliff

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Dec 15, 2015
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-------------------------------------
Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP! (Sunday)
-------------------------------------
BTC | XAU (spot) | COMEX CG1
~$594 | $-- | $--
-------------------------------------
GBTC | SPDR Gold Trust ETF
$-- | $--
-------------------------------------
10YR Treas | Copper | Crude (WTI)
-- | $---/lb | $--/barrel
-------------------------------------
NEWS + COMMENTARY

# btc general
  • No news today - tied up. Probably extends through tomorrow too. In the mean time . . .
# btc intersections

Noticed a while back that iCEBREAKER (a Bitcointalk yahoo) refers to cypherdoc from time to time as “frap.doc”. I never understood that. I started doing some digging and found a few interesting things to chew on:

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/student-papers/fall98-papers/sovereignty/frap.doc

Here’s the HTML version:

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/student-papers/fall98-papers/sovereignty/frap.html

From that page, I found a doc of the same variety as cypherdoc:

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/student-papers/fall99-papers/rao-dsig.html

That MIT class produced some awesome papers from 1994 and 1995, some citing Chaum and Finney - some that are on the cusp of adding a blockchain to digital cash.

Happy sunday - I’m going hiking now.

-------------------------------------
OTHER

ETC .0039

-------------------------------------
TRIBUTE

Sunday
 
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Andre#

New Member
Mar 13, 2016
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26
For the rest of us mere mortals to validate his musings, we'd need to know where we are at in the present moment and what the maximum theoretically possible adoption is, then we can estimate what the rate of adoption is by observing network metrics thus ascertaining whether adoption is "too fast" (as if that can ever be a bad thing).

I suppose he must have historical data that he's based his interesting thoughts behind closed doors. Just to remind him, this is bitcoin. And yes, it is a completely strange line of thinking.
Good luck with estimating the rate of adoption, let alone ascertaining whether adoption is too fast or not. I don't see how this can ever be measure except retroactively. You may find it a strange line of thinking, but in the 1930s the US government outlawed the possession of gold. Something I don't find that much less strange.

Well, you were proved wrong one time, I am sure you'll be proved wrong on the same issue a second time.
I avoided what I saw as a risk at the time. I don't think staying on the safe side proved me wrong in any way. Kind of like saying to someone with an insurance against fire, "your house didn't burn down, you were proven wrong, I'm sure you'll be proven wrong again".
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

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Aug 29, 2015
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@Andre#

You may not be familiar with the classic Gregory Maxwell method of throwing up a new excuse every time he gets cornered, to send the opposition on another wild goose chase. He is a master at that. His idea falls apart under any scrutiny, since altcoins would just take over if Bitcoin were artificially throttled. Once that excuse is decisively overturned, he'll simply come up with another one. It's one technique in his huge bag of tricks on how to leverage a power position to maximum effect, perhaps learned from his days as a Wikipedia editor.

@jonny1000

If an idea is potentially harmful, censoring discussion of it is the worst thing you could do. Allow it to be discussed so that its flaws can be laid out clearly. Even assuming Classic/XT are terrible ideas, theymos's censorship set back the debate a year or more by not allowing the discussion to happen in the biggest forum. Also, the "it's not censorship, it's just removing off-topic content" defense was embarrassing question begging the first time the /r/Bitcoin mods tried it; it's even more embarrassing to see it repeated with a straight face.

@freetrader

I can translate from Japanese, but not to Japanese. Really need a native Japanese speaker for that.
 

pekatete

Active Member
Jun 1, 2016
123
368
London, England
icreateofx.com
Kind of like saying to someone with an insurance against fire, "you're house didn't burn down, you were proven wrong, I'm sure you'll be proven wrong again".
In a convoluted way, yes you are right, but that is just in a convoluted, narrow-minded way.

It is akin to expecting to be compensated twice the actual value of your burnt down house because you were stupid enough to pay twice the market rate for the policy covering your house. (you've been proved wrong and you will be proved wrong again if not convicted of fraud!)
 

Dusty

Active Member
Mar 14, 2016
362
1,172
Please withdraw your support from incompatible implementations like Bitcoin Classic, which deliberately and necessarily activates with significant opposition and provides a huge asymmetric advantage to that opposition, such that the opposition to Classic wins and Bitcoin Classic coins vanish from your wallet.
Please provide core with a patch to augment the (non witness) block size and see the support for classic going down instead of up.
The majority of people does not want to "get rid of core": they simply want a bigger block size, and they see that Kore does not want to hear them. So they are forced to seek alternatives.
This point is so simple but still you are unable to grasp it due to your blind (irrational and religious) support for Kore.

  1. The opposition to Classic is entirely reasonable as I explained above
The opposition is fine only if there is an alternative proposal to augment the block size. There is no such alternative from Core, but there is from BU.
So you are fine to oppose Classic if you support Unlimited ;-)

  1. If you want to get rid of the Core, just create or contribute a competing compatible implementation and watch the market share of the Core version fall.
Again, a number of people is not against core because of the all other goodies we will have in Bitcoin like new signature schemes and such: they just want a bigger block size and they want a development team that listen to the community.
Core does not want to listen.
Core want to decide for everybody what is good and what is wrong, and how Bitcoin must evolve.

Of course the way Core is (mis)managing the Bitcoin evolution is creating a lot of hatred and resentment and fracture in the community.
The community was very united when Gavin was the leader, because he was reasonable. Core is not.

Too bad Kore (and you, as a blind fanatical follower incapable of own reasoning) is unable to understand simple facts like this.
 

Andre#

New Member
Mar 13, 2016
16
26
@Andre#

You may not be familiar with the classic Gregory Maxwell method of throwing up a new excuse every time he gets cornered, to send the opposition on another wild goose chase. He is a master at that. His idea falls apart under any scrutiny, since altcoins would just take over if Bitcoin were artificially throttled. Once that excuse is decisively overturned, he'll simply come up with another one. It's one technique in his huge bag of tricks on how to leverage a power position to maximum effect, perhaps learned from his days as a Wikipedia editor.
I've been following the discussion of the past years, and I'm aware of his character. And note, I don't think throttling Bitcoin adoption is a good idea. I think if Bitcoin capacity stays capped, it will be overtaken sooner or later, by an altcoin or by a forked Bitcoin.
 

Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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Notably, Gavin's assumption that money changers would not support a split has been disproven recently with ETC. There's always a money changer that wants to make a fast buck and starts to accept the alternative chain. And my gut feeling is that if money changers think that way, ultimately so will big merchants.
Is there some fully open-source exchange software out there? I don't necessarily mean full trading stuff but along the lines of shapeshift.io. If it were as easy as firing up an AWS instance, then people would support it. Perhaps the maintainer could make money in the AWS image marketplace or just take a share of the cut. That would incentivize them to add other currencies while not having the risk of personally running an exchange.
 

Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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Anyone making such sweeping statements would be expected to put out an estimate of the tipping point, if they are to be taken seriously.
Just as anyone concerned about the effect of the blocksize on decentralization should be able to put some numbers to their claim. It's all the same "grab at any excuse" stuff we've already seen.

As has been stated many times before, as the price rises due to adoption, holders will sell their bitcoin since money isn't much good unless you do something with it. This will both allow bitcoin to maintain wider adoption and also regulate adoption since people will generally be resistant to purchasing a rising cost currency. This has been gone over time and time again. If Gregonomics can't comprehend this, god only knows what it'll do when it's fed the deflationary spiral bullshit. Soft-forked inflation ahoy.
 
Even kanzure's transcripts of the California meeting are censored in a pathetic way.

Using '...' instead of blacking out does NOT make it any less censorship.

But I have noted you guys down for the 'Plausible Deniability' strategy on that score - I feel the list is nigh complete with the amount of @jonny1000 's passing the buck to Classic/XT and I'll soon have to look at the "Others" section in Wikipedia.
It's hard to make sense of the transcripts. No single statement of anybody involved? What's the goal of it? Demonstrating that bitcoin is a closed-circle's currency?

I read through it, stochastically. The part about Ethereum-Hardfork was somehow interesting. They seemingly spent a large part of day 1 to talk bad about ethereum. Something like "They are good in PR and telling the people everything is ok, while everything is failing dramatically actually ..." Why? This attacks on Ethereum, that are now seemingly proofen wrong (Ethereum seems to be stronger after the fork, not weaker, except of coinbase and btce nobody lost anything, no value is destroyed etc.)`- why? Is it double desperation, on the one side the new competitor Ethereum, having permanently reached a market cab of ~1 billion, and on the other side the fork, that did not confirm the FUD ... what's up with the miners? Do they eat all this?
,
 
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