Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

@79b79aa8

And now Ethereum (ETH+ETC) is trading at a higher price than before ETC was released. Almost all Adam Back's points are dead wrong.

• Hard fork did happen*
• While there was minor loss of funds due to replay attacks, that was entirely preventable
• There was no loss of confidence in Ethereum (at least not due to the split into ETC/ETH)
• As mentioned, the price is higher than before
• The change didn't need any kind of agreement at all
• "Democracy is..." completely irrelevant
• "Political" - this is a strawman Adam brought in based on his weird idea of democracy, not anyone else (unless you count Greg pulling the same trick with @Peter R on the dev mailing list)

It is gratifying to see one of the most egregious pieces of Core/BS propaganda so resoundingly defeated.

*Note: I think 为什么不能迸行有争议的硬分叉 means "impossible," not "should not" like the English "cannot" could be interpreted; my Chinese is minimal though

 

[jonny1000]

(just a copy, it's not really news to anyone here, but you might find the site new, and there's a related Reddit announcement thread)

You may have read it on /r/btcfork or heard it already:

We're forking Bitcoin.

We're in the process of setting up an overview site for various forks at

-------> https://bitcoinforks.org <-------

How to Contribute?

• Join the conversation on Reddit at https://reddit.com/r/btcfork
• Chat in real time with us on IRC at #btcfork on Freenode: https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#btcfork
• Vote on BTC Fork Constitution and features at https://btcfork.consider.it
• Contribute code or testing at https://github.com/BTCfork

The image is also a link to the site

I am a supporter of the Core Bitcoin team, and in particular a supporter of the Core team’s prudent, sensible and pragmatic attitude to onchain scaling, onchain capacity increases and the philosophy on hardforks. I therefore hope the existing version of Bitcoin succeeds. However, I do not plan to dump all my coins on this new btcfork chain on the market, right away. If I do that the market price could be around 1%, this would allow btcfork supporters to accumulate large quantities of their new coin at a low 1% price and I would only have 1% more Bitcoin. The btcforker’s may then have more funds to buy up the remaining btcfork coins, driving the price higher, with limited extra supply becoming available, since the Core supporters would have already sold. Instead I plan to prudently contribute to large sell walls, perhaps at the 10% level (with an additional reserve for the 25% level). That way I increase my Bitcoin holdings by 10% rather than 1% and forkers will need to spend more money to obtain their new coins. It would cost them 10x as much to by all the coins from the supporters of the existing chain. The supporters of the existing chain will hopefully treat this as a serious coin and not naively sell all the coins at 1% in the hope of making a quick buck.

For example I bought ETC at low prices right after the fork. The ETH sellers may have been wanting a quick buck. Instead perhaps, from their point of view, they should have let the price rally to 10% and then try to defend that level.

The strategies of both sides could be very interesting after btcfork launches.

 

[79b79aa8]

@jonny1000: excellent plan.

maybe the meme factory can replace back's reasons for the simple 'my company won't have total control anymore'.

 

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

@jonny1000

I'll be happy to take that money off your hands for you when the time comes.

Let the games begin!

 

[Roger_Murdock]

@79b79aa8

And now Ethereum (ETH+ETC) is trading at a higher price than before ETC was released. Almost all Adam Back's points are dead wrong.

• Hard fork did happen*
• While there was minor loss of funds due to replay attacks, that was entirely preventable
• There was no loss of confidence in Ethereum (at least not due to the split into ETC/ETH)
• As mentioned, the price is higher than before
• The change didn't need any kind of agreement at all
• "Democracy is..." completely irrelevant
• "Political" - this is a strawman Adam brought in based on his weird idea of democracy, not anyone else (unless you count Greg pulling the same trick with @Peter R on the dev mailing list)

It is gratifying to see one of the most egregious pieces of Core/BS propaganda so resoundingly defeated.

*Note: I think 为什么不能迸行有争议的硬分叉 means "impossible," not "should not" like the English "cannot" could be interpreted; my Chinese is minimal though

Yeah, that slide is truly embarrassing (and also now, as you've pointed out, demonstrably false). But I think the "democracy" claim is even more wrongheaded than you've identified. The problem with democracy is that the majority can forcibly impose their will on the minority, and the "two wolves" quote is a good one for making that basic point. But if "change [to Bitcoin] requires near universal agreement" as Back claims, that would certainly still allow the majority to impose their will on the minority, so long as the majority favors the status quo. But it'd be even worse than that, because it would also allow even a small minority to impose their will on the majority, again provided that the former group favors the status quo. Bitcoin isn't a democracy because everyone is always free to run whatever code they want and to value whichever version of the ledger they choose. And that's precisely why "contentious hard forks" CAN happen.

 

[79b79aa8]

my impression is that those 'reasons' are specifically targeted to a chinese audience, given a certain perception of their political views.

(which is condescending and hypocritical and was never going to work in the long run -- after all there are 10B USD riding on it, these people having their little invitation only get togethers are delusional).

 

[jonny1000]

I'll be happy to take that money off your hands for you when the time comes.

My advice to both sides is do not underestimate the the number of people or level of determination of those on the other side of the debate. The debate appears to be about whether an existing protocol rule can or should be eliminated without strong consensus across the entire community. For some reason, many have a very hard time understanding the very basic concept of a difference of opinion, which is a perfectly normal, common and healthy thing. Instead many are incorrectly convinced that the other side are liars, corrupt, conflicted, con-men (and their victims), sadists, perverted, trolls or idiots. I assure you, many people on both sides are genuine and determined.

 

[Justus Ranvier]

incorrectly convinced that the other side are liars

When you catch people making statements that are demonstrably false, repeatedly, over the course of many years, you don't get to call it "incorrect" simply because it's inconvenient for you that other people noticed.

 

[Zarathustra]

"Instead many are incorrectly convinced that the other side are liars, corrupt, conflicted, con-men (and their victims), sadists, perverted, trolls or idiots."

You can't put the Apartheid Regime and Mandelas movement into the same basket, unless you are dishonest. You can't put Luke, Maxwell, Todd and Thermos into the same basket with Andresen, Zander, the Zerg and Bloomie, unless you are dishonest.

 

[sickpig]

@jonny1000

I can't help noting that as of late the tone of your comments could sound a little bit threatening, I could be wrong but I just want to share my thoughts just in case your are interested in.

Two particular pieces caught my eyes, first this:

Well that is interesting, perhaps one strategy of the Core supporters would be to hold off selling the Classic Coins until the first difficulty adjustment. Then sell the Classic coins and drive the relative price of the Core coins up, such that mining is more profitable on the Core chain.
(I have a few other strategies, I have reason to believe many on the Core side have been preparing for these kind of things for a while. In contrast, judging from discussions here, the Classic side may have limited knowledge about the strategies to engage in, I could be wrong through?)

and now this one:

However, I do not plan to dump all my coins on this new btcfork chain on the market, right away. If I do that the market price could be around 1%, this would allow btcfork supporters to accumulate large quantities of their new coin at a low 1% price and I would only have 1% more Bitcoin. The btcforker’s may then have more funds to buy up the remaining btcfork coins, driving the price higher, with limited extra supply becoming available, since the Core supporters would have already sold. Instead I plan to prudently contribute to large sell walls, perhaps at the 10% level (with an additional reserve for the 25% level). That way I increase my Bitcoin holdings by 10% rather than 1% and forkers will need to spend more money to obtain their new coins. It would cost them 10x as much to by all the coins from the supporters of the existing chain. The supporters of the existing chain will hopefully treat this as a serious coin and not naively sell all the coins at 1% in the hope of making a quick buck.

Speaking of the topic you mentioned in the aforementioned quotes, I'd say that you should not worry too much. At the end of the day the market will decide, not me nor you.

edit: grammar

 

[freetrader]

So, has anyone been able to confirm whether the "first transcript" released (talk by Jihan Wu and related Q&A apparently held at Google in Mountain View) is actually formally part of the Core/miner meeting that they announced, or was it a separate speaking event that just so happened also to be transcribed mostly without attribution?

This should be a straightforward question for @Jihan to enlighten us on.

 

[jonny1000]

I can't help noting that as of late the tone of your comments could sound a little bit threatening, I could be wrong but I just want to share my thoughts just in case your are interested i

I do not see how publicly discussing the interesting strategies market participants could engage in is threatening. These are legitimate strategies, which traders are entitled to follow. I am sure the "only hardfork without consensus" side also has interesting trading strategies. Discussing them is not a problem.

 

[freetrader]

I do not see how publicly discussing the interesting strategies market participants could engage in is threatening.

First time in a long time I agree with @jonny1000 .

However, I do not plan to [...] Instead I plan to [...]

It can serve us best to hear the strategies that he intends following. Basic game theory, right, to lay open your cards? ;-)
It can only speed a quicker end to the game, and move us all on to the next round. @NashGuy might be inclined to agree.

 

[sickpig]

@freetrader

I wasn't arguing about the content of @jonny1000's comments but about the tone, but as I've already said I could be me.

edit:grammar

 

[freetrader]

https://github.com/jonny1000/btcforksite

Hopefully Jonny is setting up to give us some input.

 

[cliff]

-------------------------------------

Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP!

-------------------------------------
BTC | XAU (spot) | COMEX CG1

~$570 | $1,340 | $1,346.5

-------------------------------------
GBTC | SPDR Gold Trust ETF

$98.9 | $127.89
-------------------------------------
10YR Treas | Copper | Crude (WTI)

1.55% | $215.9/lb | $41.5/barrel
-------------------------------------
NEWS

Ryan Kennedy of Moolah sentenced to 11 yrs in jail for rape

• Or, do we have a Bitfinex-it?

Kim Dotcom deamin’ big.

Bitfinex supporting socialized losses.

• Looks like a “bail-in”
  • H/T - https://news.bitcoin.com/bitfinex-bail-haircut-btc-traders/

U.S. Central Bankers risk falling behind RE: digital currency

Interesting …. ETC devs are coming?

***
US Trade Deficit Widens. Consumer demand + weak foreign growth = more imports.

• Data

Goldman Sachs fined for profiting off confidential info.

Former CIA chief speaks out against Mr. Trump - "Our nation will be much safer with Hillary Clinton as president."

• Flashback - Trump Presidency a top-10 risk to the planet
  • Updated data (July 20th) - 16th greatest risk to the world is a Trump Presidency

-------------------------------------
MISC

Scaling Bitcoin - 2016 Milan - Call for Papers/Proposals

• https://scalingbitcoin.org/milan2016/#workshop

[bitcoin-dev] Mimblewimble: non-interactive coinjoin, signature aggregation and confidential transactions

MIT paper on prediction markets and blockchains

Financial crises and digital currencies

Quanta lottery white paper draft v0.4

• See also - http://www.coinfox.info/news/6113-khaker-bitfinex-poobeshchal-razdat-1000-bitkoinov-2

ETC .0042

XMR approaching ~.0032
_________________________
A.M. Tribute

 

[MoonShot]

@jonny1000

I can't help noting that as of late the tone of your comments could sound a little bit threatening, I could be wrong but I just want to share my thoughts just in case your are interested in.
...
edit: grammar

It does sound like Almost-Satoshi Adam & Co are preparing for a fork by attempting to drive the Classic coin price into the ground. Bring it on ... market will win

 

[freetrader]

Can this get any more absurd?

Hacker: My bitcointalk.org account was hacked. The hacker edited the post. Do not send bitcoins to the hacker's address, I would NEVER ask you for bitcoins. /u/BashCo /u/theymos please lock the account until a signed message is provided, and please also revert the edits

https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4w786e/alert_bitcointalkorg_account_compromised_do_not/

[doublepost=1470411927][/doublepost]I like this chart.

 

[albin]

All SJW caveats about fat shaming aside, does anyone else find it utterly fascinating that Bryan Bishop a.k.a. kanzure posts all these transcripts to a wiki he runs about biohacking and transhumanism, and, well... look at him!?

 

[lunar]

Trouble at the mill?