Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

priestc

Member
Nov 19, 2015
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191
@freetrader, the problem with that proposal is that fees are not part of the protocol. A miner already has the ability to freely choose which transactions to add to each block. If the code were to change to calculate fee by output instead of by byte, there is no way to force miners to not use the old calculation. Today if a miner wanted to only include free transactions in each block, thats completely within that miner's power, they don't do that because most miners want to maximize their income.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
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Agreed. So the answer to Stolfi's proposal is "somebody should totally do that" and then leave it to the miners to decide.

Stolfi leans socialist so he tends to think of everything through the lens of the needs of the crowd, not as one entity voluntarily interacting with another.

This is another reason to have modularization. Miners could include transactions based on whatever parameters they wanted.
 

priestc

Member
Nov 19, 2015
94
191
Agreed. So the answer to Stolfi's proposal is "somebody should totally do that" and then leave it to the miners to decide.
Yeah, but I have a hard time believing miners will adopt this change, especially while the blocks are limited by size. If the blocksize limit was expressed in the protocol as a "maximum transactions per block" amount, then it could work.

Lets say the protocol limited blocks to have no more than 100 transactions. Then there would be no penalty for the miner to include lots of transactions with many inputs. The only penalty is that the bigger the block, the more likely that block will be orphaned.
 

lunar

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Aug 28, 2015
1,001
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Chancellor on the brink?
Deutsche Bank's Chief Economist Calls For €150 Billion Bailout Of European Banks
Looks like we might get to test your theory? They would certainly be spending a good chunk of that 'trust'.

Would Germany bail out a wrecked DB? What would happen to the Euro if they did?
Of course they will bailout them, and nothing much will happen. The world market trusts the Euro, the Dollar and Yen more than the Brexit Pound and the BRICS junk. The market is about credit/trust, and those markets still enjoy the most credit and trust.
David Folkerts-Landau, the chief economist of Deutsche Bank, has called for a multi-billion dollar bailout for European banks.

Speaking to Germany's Welt am Sonntag, the economist said European institutions should get fresh capital for a recapitalization following a similar bailout in the US. What he didn't say is that the US bailout took place nearly a decade ago, in the meantime Europe's financial sector was supposed to be fixed courtesy of "prudent" fiscal and monetary policy. It wasn't.

As Landau says the US helped its banks with $475 billion dollars, and such a program is now needed in Europe, especially for Italian banks. In other words, just because the US did it, now it's Europe's turn to ask for more of the same.

"In Europe, the bailout does not need to be so large. A €150 billion program should be enough to help European banks recapitalize," said David Folkerts-Landau. He adds that the decline in bank stocks is only the symptom of a much larger problem, namely a fatal combination of low growth, high debt and a "dangerous" deflation.

"Europe is seriously ill and needs to address very quickly the existing problems, or face an accident," said the chief economist.
 

Erdogan

Active Member
Aug 30, 2015
476
855
@Erdogan

@tar's legendary post is translated now.
It's the best summary of Dr. Paul C. Martin's 'Debitism' I've ever read.

http://www.dasgelbeforum.net/forum_entry.php?id=407690
@Zarathustra

I don't agree. I know about debt, but it is something different, and it plays ball with money when the debt is denominated in the money unit. I even don't disagree that debt came first.

There is no violence needed for money. It is for friendly trading, for win win exchanges.

You can see money reappear as something, whatever, each time the money used some place is destroyed. Corn, fish, homespun, sprits, beercans, houses, whatever. They form bubbles that pricks when better stuff becomes available, foreign fiat, precious metal coins, bitcoin. They bubble, deflate when better money is available, and the best money is a bubble that never deflates.
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,994
Chancellor on the brink?
Deutsche Bank's Chief Economist Calls For €150 Billion Bailout Of European Banks
Looks like we might get to test your theory? They would certainly be spending a good chunk of that 'trust'.
such bullshit.

much of the US bailout money in 2008 went to European banks in the form of swaps to prevent contagion; which it didn't.
[doublepost=1468169488][/doublepost]Exchanges told Bitcoin that had seen volumes more than double in the wake of the EU referendum, particularly from people in the UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-pound-sterling-bitcoin-prices-unstable-volatile-exchange-referendum-a7129311.html
 
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Erdogan

Active Member
Aug 30, 2015
476
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@cypherdoc:

I think I can feel your blood pressure across the Intertubes. To calm you down (hopefully) and cheer you up, I found this proposal from Jorge Stolfi which I would like to put up here for criticism.
The 2nd paragraph tripped me up, but I found reading on very worthwhile.

It didn't trip me up. It is how a market would function.

Did you ever consider why there is always a free seat on a plane if you want to go somewhere, despite arranging for a plane, the plane factory, the airports, the timeslots, the flight corridors, the flight administration, the fuel supply etc etc is a major operation? It is the market, the transport provider tries to get the highest price from those who just want to fly, whatever it takes, and fills the rest of the plane with price aware customers.

The pricing is individual for a miner and a pool, they will never use exactly the same pricing strategy. The market will give us most value for the money. No worry.
 
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Nov 27, 2015
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...the best money is a bubble that never deflates.
^This.

Speculative asset bubbles are symptomatic of the market's subconscious effort in discovering a better money. The degree to which the dominant money underperforms in its role of facilitating monetary behavior determines the quantity and magnitude of speculative bubbles that emerge throughout the economy. A lot of demand in these speculative asset classes will evaporate when the market stumbles upon a true contender to challenge the incumbent monetary protocol.
 

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
@Zarathustra

I don't agree. I know about debt, but it is something different, and it plays ball with money when the debt is denominated in the money unit. I even don't disagree that debt came first.

There is no violence needed for money. It is for friendly trading, for win win exchanges.

You can see money reappear as something, whatever, each time the money used some place is destroyed. Corn, fish, homespun, sprits, beercans, houses, whatever. They form bubbles that pricks when better stuff becomes available, foreign fiat, precious metal coins, bitcoin. They bubble, deflate when better money is available, and the best money is a bubble that never deflates.
There is no friendly trading before the homo sapiens became a patronized and taxed tribute producer (homo oeconomicus). Self-sufficient, anarchist communities don't trade and don't have markets because they are self-sufficient. They don't produce surplus because they don't have to pay tribute. Their production growth (and destruction of the environment) therefore is zero. That's the real win win situation. Enforced surplus production is a lose-lose situation.It is cancer.

And yes, those commodities which the austrian and other theologies are calling money get replaced regularly by other commodities. But the foundation of those mediums of exchange always survives: debt/credit. Bitcoin could easily become replaced by a copy or a clone. Debt/credit has never been replaced since the invention of the homo oeconomicus (tribute producer).
 
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lunar

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Aug 28, 2015
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They don't produce surplus
I see an pessimistic simplification of the past

V's a utopian and altruistic vision for a possible past and future.

You can see money reappear as something, whatever, each time the money used some place is destroyed. Corn, fish, homespun, spirits, beer cans, houses, whatever. They form bubbles that pricks when better stuff becomes available, foreign fiat, precious metal coins, bitcoin.
Is it not possible that you are both right? In that money may well have originated from state sponsored violence for tribute, but also be an emergent property of an advanced society? If you removed the elements of forced tribute, would the concept of money not be an evolution in human communication of value anyway?

Surplus can also be derived from a desire to be seen as (superior / more attractive) than ones peers?

The cane or the carrot.
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
5,257
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the fearful are about to figure out Bitcoin is NOT going to fail from a mining induced price "death spiral":

 
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Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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Yeah, but I have a hard time believing miners will adopt this change, especially while the blocks are limited by size. If the blocksize limit was expressed in the protocol as a "maximum transactions per block" amount, then it could work.
Agreed. On all points.
 
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theZerg

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 28, 2015
1,012
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There is no friendly trading before the homo sapiens became a patronized and taxed tribute producer (homo oeconomicus). Self-sufficient, anarchist communities don't trade and don't have markets because they are self-sufficient. They don't produce surplus because they don't have to pay tribute. Their production growth (and destruction of the environment) therefore is zero. That's the real win win situation. Enforced surplus production is a lose-lose situation.It is cancer.

And yes, those commodities which the austrian and other theologies are calling money get replaced regularly by other commodities. But the foundation of those mediums of exchange always survives: debt/credit. Bitcoin could easily become replaced by a copy or a clone. Debt/credit has never been replaced since the invention of the homo oeconomicus (tribute producer).
Z I respect u but u are nuts. There is no self sufficient modern society because this isnt minecraft world. U cant just dig down and find tantalum, iridium palladium etc. And we need these elements for modern tech.

In many places the govt provides valuable services for its admittedly excessive taxes. Its not perfect but its not some 100pct military junta whose purpose is solely extraction of wealth.

I heard a quote from buffet I think that said that really the only great benefit the rich have from the middle class is access to personal air transportation. (And for some, not working although many rich ppl work very hard.) But that's it... there's not much else that isn't available. Contrast that to the prehistory where we all squatted in filthy caves together equal for all 25 to 30 years of our life.
 

Erdogan

Active Member
Aug 30, 2015
476
855
I see an pessimistic simplification of the past

V's a utopian and altruistic vision for a possible past and future.



Is it not possible that you are both right? In that money may well have originated from state sponsored violence for tribute, but also be an emergent property of an advanced society? If you removed the elements of forced tribute, would the concept of money not be an evolution in human communication of value anyway?

Surplus can also be derived from a desire to be seen as (superior / more attractive) than ones peers?

The cane or the carrot.
I see money as something inherently human.
 

lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
4,290
@Erdogan

Adele penguins use stones to build their nests, what with there being a shortage of twigs and leaves in Antarctica. In 1998, researchers found that if there is a shortage of stones female penguins will trade sex with a male not their mate in exchange for stones.

In the wild, female chimpanzees have been seen trading sex for meat. In the lab, capuchin monkeys who are rewarded with silver discs for performing some task will use them to buy sex.

*sourced - interwebz :cautious:*
edit here's one, http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/magazine/monkey-business.html
 
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Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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@theZerg @lunar @Erdogan

So far the moderators let me do it I continue to play the advocatus diaboli in this BU community, which to my taste is libertarian, but not (yet) libertarian enough ;-)


Of course there is hope:

"The Bitcoiners are going to totally destroy your society and your 'laws'"
(@fonestar)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470593.0

I would say: The Cryptographers, the cypher punks (and docs ;-) are going to totally destroy your society and your 'laws'.

They created a tool to overcome collectivism/state/society, which are just different words for the same tragedy (of the commons).

Of course this is bad news to all the supporters of the society (collectivism). Crypto will enable to do everything imaginable anonymously. There is no society that can survive such an attribute.

"You're all a bunch of socialists!"

Mises was only half right. I would say to LvM: You are all a bunch of collectivists, yourself included. Everyone who supports the society supports a contest with and against aliens. In a decentralized world that's not going to happen. There you are not enforced to interact with your enemies, with Kim Jong Thermos and Gregory Maxwell, for example. Self-sufficient homines sapientes and Orang Utans avoid interaction and confrontation with aliens, while the homo oeconomicus is stupid enough to search it.

So, yes, there is indeed hope: Tainter's law determined the outcome of the society whenever a society (organized violence) had been created, whether you believe it or not! The New Idol is determined to disappear:

Yea, a dying for many hath here been devised, which glorifieth itself as life: verily, a hearty service unto all preachers of death!

The state, I call it, where all are poison-drinkers, the good and the bad: the state, where all lose themselves, the good and the bad: the state, where the slow suicide of all—is called "life."

Just see these superfluous ones! They steal the works of the inventors and the treasures of the wise. Culture, they call their theft—and everything becometh sickness and trouble unto them!

Just see these superfluous ones! Sick are they always; they vomit their bile and call it a newspaper. They devour one another, and cannot even digest themselves.

Just see these superfluous ones! Wealth they acquire and become poorer thereby. Power they seek for, and above all, the lever of power, much money—these impotent ones!

See them clamber, these nimble apes! They clamber over one another, and thus scuffle into the mud and the abyss.
(...)

Open still remaineth the earth for great souls. Empty are still many sites for lone ones and twain ones, around which floateth the odour of tranquil seas.

Open still remaineth a free life for great souls. Verily, he who possesseth little is so much the less possessed: blessed be moderate poverty!

There, where the state ceaseth—there only commenceth the man who is not superfluous: there commenceth the song of the necessary ones, the single and irreplaceable melody.

There, where the state ceaseth—pray look thither, my brethren! Do ye not see it, the rainbow and the bridges of the Superman?—

Thus spake Zarathustra.
 
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Erdogan

Active Member
Aug 30, 2015
476
855
@Erdogan

Adele penguins use stones to build their nests, what with there being a shortage of twigs and leaves in Antarctica. In 1998, researchers found that if there is a shortage of stones female penguins will trade sex with a male not their mate in exchange for stones.

In the wild, female chimpanzees have been seen trading sex for meat. In the lab, capuchin monkeys who are rewarded with silver discs for performing some task will use them to buy sex.

*sourced - interwebz :cautious:*
edit here's one, http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/magazine/monkey-business.html
In light of this, I have to track back a bit. It seems animals also can value things speculatively.

Next, tell me when a bird starts hoarding bitcoins.
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
Of course this is bad news to all the supporters of the society (collectivism). Crypto will enable to do everything imaginable anonymously. There is no society that can survive such an attribute.
@Zarathustra :

I disagree. Crypto will allow do to virtual things anonymously. But if you want to convert your shiny tokens into something tangible, lets say buy a house, for example, you'll still need to tie your name to it in some registry. Also meaning that as soon as you exert lots of influence with your virtual tokens, it can and will be taxed.

I do not see that real life aspect disappearing, at all :)

That said, I still think the sound money properties can maybe cut down on the bad excesses of fractional reserve banking a bit - you can individually decide on how much you want to be part of that, and are not citizen of some big mass where someone else decides for you how much you gotta bail-in or bail-out those banks ...

Depending on how, how quickly and how bad the current decay of the western world goes on - I am also not sure we'll end up in your postindustrial scenario. We're either ending in a doom scenario - or, hopefully more likely, people will be forced to see that the energy question, for example, can be solved in the mid-term by fission power and maybe lots of solar. Until fusion arrives.
 
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Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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@awemany

Society (collectivistic surplus production to pay tribute) is per se a doom scenario. Always had been.
Tainter's law: A society is a 'problem solving' construct facing 'Diminishing return on additional investment in additional complexity/debt/energy'. Doomed at the start.

Islamism, catholicism, austrianism, keynesianism, socialism or capitalism are just utopias that never will overcome nature's law.

And it doesn't help if you are virtually doxxed, extortioned, denounced, threatened and destroyed. Where is u/hellobitcoinworld?
 
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