Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/jeff-garziks-bloq-runs-smart-contracts-like-ethereum-plug-bitcoin-1561976

This looks a whole lot more viable for business use than Ethereum:

Bloq's smart contract application is a piece of software called Bloq Ora (short for oracle). It allows users to run their favourite programming language, Java, JavaScript, Python, C++, and write Turing-complete smart contracts on any blockchain.

Garzik told IBTimes: "It's essentially designed as an Ethereum plug-in for Bitcoin. But it has several qualities that make it, in my opinion, better than Ethereum, where you have to learn a new programming language, you have to download a new debugging software, new development tools, everything - sort of the ink is not yet dry.

...

"So you don't have to trust Bloq individually. You contact five companies running Bloq Ora and they each execute the smart contract in exactly the same fashion. Then you verify that at least three of five of those companies' Bloq Ora instances return the same answer.

"That's how you can create trust in a decentralised world; you have to look across organisational boundaries to provide users that full picture of security that they deserve."
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
@Zangelbert Bingledack

good article. this caught my eye:

"It was when Satoshi was there and, to be frank, Satoshi in the early days was acting just like Vitalik [Buterin, Ethereum inventor] is today. Not a lot of people know this - several hard forking consensus rule changes, Satoshi simply put into the code, published the code, and everyone had to follow.

"But in the very early days when Bitcoin was worth a penny a bitcoin rather than today's $450 a bitcoin, everyone knew that it was an experiment. Everyone knew that it would rapidly iterate, and everyone knew that these sort of quick changes were needed.

"Ethereum will slow over time as more and more people depend on the original Ethereum rules. I would expect Ethereum to follow a similar trajectory as it gets older."

the other potential problem for Eth and other crypto-related companies (which i've argued for years) is that it's founder, Vitalik, is a known identity. there was a reason Satoshi disappeared. he wanted to avoid what he felt would be inevitable scrutiny and political pressure as Bitcoin became popular. this is a potential danger for Eth.
[doublepost=1464200851][/doublepost]i thought this article would be more mundane than it was. i think it is intriguing that any money-losing gvt agency should want to use an appreciating currency to run it's business. could solve alot of their problems in the long run:

US Postal Service investigates four different ways to use Blockchain technology to improve services

The benefits and challenges of each choice are examined, including implementation. “The Postal Service could use the Bitcoin protocol,” it stated, or “another open source software.”

http://bravenewcoin.com/news/us-postal-service-investigates-four-different-ways-to-use-blockchain-technology-to-improve-services/

[doublepost=1464201627,1464200609][/doublepost]add on another Fintech hub. also interested in Bitcoin:

http://www.livebitcoinnews.com/ireland-embraces-cryptocurrency-fintech-solutions/
 

Peter R

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,398
5,595
@Zangelbert Bingledack

I'm starting to really like this strong consensus angle. We could call it "The Strong Consensus Doctrine [of Blockstream/Core]."

It would be great to have a collection of quotes that demonstrate how they subscribe to this doctrine, how the try to spread it, and how they fight ideas that conflict with it. Something like that great article @go1111111 wrote a while ago where he analyzed BS/Core's way of thinking.
 
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awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
@lunar

my takeaway from that Gavin blogpost was this as it applies to miners (bolded mine):

There are limits on routing table sizes, but they are not top-down-specified-in-a-standards-document protocol limits. They are organic (block) limits that arise from whatever hardware is available and from the (sometimes very contentious!) interaction of the engineers keeping the Internet backbone up and running.
Indeed. Thanks @lunar for pointing me to Gavin's block post. I see I have some catching-up to do..

I think that observation is indeed a very good one, thanks @Gavin Andresen!

The used space the IP routing table (~ full node disk space, ~ UTXO set?) is a shared resource as well that will be eaten by growing the number of Internet hosts (~ Bitcoin participants).

Note also that there have been many people predicting the eventual clogging and subsequent death of the Internet before!

Also note: Trying to push stuff to Level2 protocols is akin to trying to keep the number of prefixes low. So Thunder (or LN) would be a bit like the upgrade of Internet routing from IPv4 to IPv6. Yes, reducing the number of prefixes was and is a reason that there is a slow(!) rollout and upgrade to IPv6 in progress.

Note that, in the meantime, noone stopped IPv4 from happening - and people are moving slowly but surely and organically to IPv6. No strong-arming. Just people following their and their peers' best interests...

I really like this comparison, because it is so quite close.

Very good post.
 

Inca

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 28, 2015
517
1,679
This weekend I am going to write a python reddit bot to start monitoring /r/bitcoin and /r/btc to generate some meaningful subreddit stats based upon actual user postings.

I now believe that the 'online now' numbers for /r/bitcoin are mostly bots and that the majority of the active usership have moved away.

Theymos may have achieved his wish:
'if 90% of users do not agree with my policies, then 90% of people can leave!'
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
It would be interesting if your theory about strongius consensius is correct, because it would mean that the underlying disagreement between the two sides of the debate isn't technical. Instead, it's philosophical, perhaps approaching religion.
I think it could just be a difference in how people picture Bitcoin working - different mental models that have long since subducted into the subconscious. That would tend to give their mindset the character of a religion, but offers the possibility of changing their minds if this assumption can be brought back into conscious awareness to be re-examined. (A big infographic showing how consensus-ites and forkers view blocksize, hard/soft forks, dev decentralization, etc. side by side, presented completely neutrally, seems like it could do the job.)

I had assumed everyone basically saw Bitcoin like I did, as a system that can fork and split freely to overcome any obstacle, with investors driving the process and market incentives ensuring store of value remains protected. It seems so natural to me: everyone knows investors are buying in because it is sound money and if populists come in and try to change it investors can just support a fork that avoids the change since it is open source. How wouldn't that be the way things like the 21M coin limit are protected against governments and populist movements swayed by Keynesianism (if these actually exist)?

But now, when I try to forget all that and view Bitcoin governance as literally a "consensus system,"* where the sound money properties of Bitcoin are preserved by the fact that almost everyone must come to consensus in order to make changes, a whole new world opens up. This topsy-turvy world exhibits all manner of bizarre phenomena we have scratched our heads at during the blocksize debate. In this world, the 21M coin limit is protected by the need to reach the near-impossible 95% threshold.

*The equivocation with the quite different idea of Bitcoin being a "Nakamoto consensus system" as @Mengerian mentioned makes this all the easier a trap to fall into.

The funny thing is, if you fuzz your mind for a moment, strong consensus almost looks like the same protection as that afforded by investor control, in that with investors all being invested on the basis of Bitcoin being sound money, it will be nearly impossible to convince them to support an inflationary fork. The failure scenario also looks superficially similar: one could imagine 20x more investment coming into Bitcoin in a populist wave and overwhelming current investors (putting them into the 5% minority), which is probably something like what the strong consensusites picture when they think of the dreaded Free Shit Army.

The two views diverge clearly on this point, though, because forkers like me see that as no problem, since we can fork away from any dev team that caters to such Free Shit Army. In contrast, the consensusites see this as an existential crisis, because whatever there is consensus on becomes Bitcoin (maybe with pet exceptions). To most of them, I imagine making an exception to this principle is seen as introducing arbitrariness into the system, destroying its credibility (or something).

The "pet exceptions" and "or something" arises because it's an internally contradictory worldview, so everyone will likely have their own take on what happens at the edges of the argument. I would like to talk civilly with more consensusites like @jonny1000 to see what each of their answers are on this question. Surely some will even say, "We just fork them away!" But of course if they applied this logic across their whole worldview they would seemingly have to come to the forker position.

It is difficult for me to get a handle on it beyond seeing the common denominator of Strongius Consensius, because if I'm right then this view involves a lot of compartmentalized thinking, and my brain objects loudly to considering things that way after all the time I've spent trying to decompartmentalize my thinking on this, by taking seriously* the ideas of forking, investor control, and ledger copying dynamics.

*The author of that post says he no longer endorses it, presumably because LessWrong later pointed out the dangers in de-compartmentalizing an idea that turns out to be wrong. That is true, yet it remains a key rationality technique. Not taking an important correct idea seriously can be just as dangerous as taking a wrong idea seriously. The solution is to try the idea on for size across your whole web of beliefs and see how much it clarifies, and to always be ready to update on new information.

Here is a post from Theymos that seems to espouse some version of this view, though I'm sure there are much more quotable ones.
 
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awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
This weekend I am going to write a python reddit bot to start monitoring /r/bitcoin and /r/btc to generate some meaningful subreddit stats based upon actual user postings.

I now believe that the 'online now' numbers for /r/bitcoin are mostly bots and that the majority of the active usership have moved away.

Theymos may have achieved his wish:
If you do not know this resource, have a look here: http://files.pushshift.io/

A very valuable resource, IMO. Should be mirrored widely, to prevent rewriting Bitcoin history. I am not one of those believing that the Internet never forgets.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
It's striking that theymos said this, last August long after the censorship campaign started, in that thread I linked in my previous post:
Unlike some in the "conservative camp", I don't believe that it's necessary to artificially restrict block space. I even think that there's a fairly easy way that the global max block size could reasonably be entirely removed (each full node would have its own max block size calculated in a certain special way), though I think that a global max is better.
(emphasis mine)
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
@Zangelbert Bingledack

"But now, when I try to forget all that and view Bitcoin governance as literally a "consensus system,"* where the sound money properties of Bitcoin are preserved by the fact that almost everyone must come to consensus in order to make changes, a whole new world opens up."

But that is not how kore dev thinks in general. Consensus only is applicable when entities other than themselves come up with ideas contrary to theirs that require HF's that result in change of governance.

In all other matters, SF's are perfectly fine, with consensus confined to a mere handful of kore devs and not to the wider community.

IOW, it's just a made up convenience for certain times as a result of financial confliction.
 

lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
4,290
@Inca
This weekend I am going to write a python reddit bot to start monitoring /r/bitcoin and /r/btc to generate some meaningful subreddit stats based upon actual user postings.

I now believe that the 'online now' numbers for /r/bitcoin are mostly bots and that the majority of the active usership have moved away.

Theymos may have achieved his wish:
Just a quick spot check (results may vary) of the numbers from the FIRST page of TOP articles in each sub for the last 24 hours.

/r/bitcoin 177,806 readers
users online- currently 416
total upvotes for top articles - 1045
total comments on top articles - 418

/r/btc 16,573 subscribers
users online- currently 158
total upvotes for top articles - 1126
total comments on top articles - 528

ahh what the heck while i'm at it, weekly stats too.

/r/bitcoin
total upvotes for top articles - 3564 (includes one outlier of 944 votes)
total comments on top articles - 5783 (includes 2 outliers of 400,522)

/r/btc
total upvotes for top articles - 3758
total comments on top articles - 1828

draw your own conclusions, but i'm encouraged.
 

Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
223
1,453
Sorry, but I don't buy the idea that the "strong consensus" position is the underlying driver behind the small-blockist position. To me, it's obviously (yet another) post-hoc rationalization. Of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't useful idiots (no offense) who have genuinely bought into the idea. I mean, it's just so ... stupid. I get the idea. "Hey, if we could get Bitcoin stakeholders to widely internalize the idea that we shouldn't make changes to Bitcoin without a super-duper (95%) majority in support, that would act as a strong bulwark against improvident and value-destroying changes (like raising the supply limit)." Well, yeah, I guess that's true. Of course, there's a corollary to that. Such a norm would also act as a strong obstacle to the implementation of necessary and value-enhancing changes. In other words, it's a stupidly overbroad norm that is, at best, a piss-poor proxy for the norms you actually want, e.g., some general bias in favor of the status quo ("we shouldn't make changes to Bitcoin unless we're sure there's a very good reason for doing so" / "if it ain't broke don't fix it"), combined with some even stronger skepticism regarding changes to features of Bitcoin that are viewed as especially important (e.g., the 21M supply cap).

And it's particularly bizarre to attempt to apply this "strong consensus" norm at a technical / code level rather than at the functional level. If you require a 95% super-duper-majority to change a '1' to a '2' in a single line of code, you are thereby allowing a 6% minority to effect a fundamental change to Bitcoin's very nature, converting it from a "peer-to-peer electronic cash system" to some sort of "settlement network." That is insanity.

EDIT: I should note that there is another argument in support of the "strong consensus" position. This is the argument that "contentious" hard forks are dangerous because they risk a "persistent fork" and the associated loss of network effect. This argument is also, well, stupid, and has already been beaten to death in this thread. But in short, it ignores the overwhelming incentives that drive convergence on a single chain. It also ignores the fact that there's simply no way to avoid the risk of a persistent hard fork because everyone is always free to do whatever the hell they want. In other words, to use one of my favorite analogies for Bitcoin, the herd of animals, it's true that if a majority of the herd changes direction, it's possible that a significant minority could simply continue on in the original direction. But so what? That risk is no different in principle than the always-present risk that a disgruntled minority could decide to set off in a new direction. And in fact, the idiotic "strong consensus" norm would seem to amplify that risk. If 80% of the network supports bigger blocks "in principle" but half of them won't commit to a fork unless they're part of this mythical, unobtainable 95% super-duper majority, well maybe the other half (representing 40% of the network) will get so frustrated with the situation, they'll decide to fork off on their own without a majority of the hash power. See the problem?
 
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Erdogan

Active Member
Aug 30, 2015
476
856
Strong consensus wrt the coin limit - I suppose some people in the future will try to change it, especially if they can blame bitcoin for some economic haywire situation. But in that case, we will have consensus by chainfork, Zanglebert Bingledack style, and we will thus win.
 
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Inca

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 28, 2015
517
1,679
@Inca


Just a quick spot check (results may vary) of the numbers from the FIRST page of TOP articles in each sub for the last 24 hours.

/r/bitcoin 177,806 readers
users online- currently 416
total upvotes for top articles - 1045
total comments on top articles - 418

/r/btc 16,573 subscribers
users online- currently 158
total upvotes for top articles - 1126
total comments on top articles - 528

ahh what the heck while i'm at it, weekly stats too.

/r/bitcoin
total upvotes for top articles - 3564 (includes one outlier of 944 votes)
total comments on top articles - 5783 (includes 2 outliers of 400,522)

/r/btc
total upvotes for top articles - 3758
total comments on top articles - 1828

draw your own conclusions, but i'm encouraged.
This is fantastic @lunar . I'll write a bot that exports some of that into some charts, i'll try and extract and generate some kind of active user count and chart that too, need to pipe it to a website realtime.

I think the key point will be to see if the assertion that 'number of subscribers and "online now" count are painting a false picture of subreddit popularity is true, and if so, to distribute that information widely online.

Censorship seems to be failing as a long term strategy.
 
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awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
@Inca, @lunar: I ran some stats on the comment data from the pushshift site, filtering the whole reddit stream for some Bitcoin keywords and a couple subreddits. I do not remember the details, but it was pretty obvious that the Ethereum-related reddits became quite a bit stronger over the last couple months.

So maybe also include those, too, to maximize penetration power for your arguments into the thick skulls of the idiots that are the problem.


EDIT: And as I have downloaded this data (the comments though, not the submissions yet) and imported into a custom SQLite DB: If you have any queries/stats you are interested in, please tell me and I can see what I can do.

I used that data recently to, for example, counter the idiotic and wrong argument that the Classic team is the one burning time on reddit and politicizing.

Note, though, that the pushshift data ends at March this year. Though the guy keeps running the collection server, I believe, so we might get an update (with up to a month delay).
 
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albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
anybody know how much Ether Vitalik was awarded during the premine?
I recall hearing something like 600,000 but I'm not sure how to adequately confirm.

On the general subject of initial distribution coin sales, what's to stop the organization from making an arbitrarily-large stealth premine? They can just pay themselves Bitcoins, and keep the Bitcoins and the allocation of the new token. The only measure of consumer protection I can imagine here is very aggressively policing the identity records on the books, but I don't see how that would be possible in any current systems.
 
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