Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

freetrader

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@Zangelbert Bingledack :
That is basically what happened to Gavin and Mike [...]
Yes, those were prominent on my mind, but if you're right about the belief system, then there must have been some less famous ones before that, and more to come because I don't think rationality can function well in such a system. If I had to predict, it'd be the most rational among them who might get the stick first, because they'll be next up to disagree with forthcoming Krazy Moves.

Where it gets totally Krazy is that they realize that they need not only the mining cartel, but the wider ecosystem (full nodes, forum owners/mods, pools, exchanges) to maintain their dominance. But they apply similar drastic measures to those who step out of line there as well:

- full nodes: attack (DDOS), paint as useless when they are not Core (VPS nodes)
- forums: censor contrary views, ban disagreeable persons, infiltrate other forums (btcdrak in /r/btc)
- pools: attack, threaten (e.g. AsicBoost patent POW fork threats)
- exchanges: ridicule (RBF double-spend), attack reputation in controlled forums (Armstrong, Voorhees)
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

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But in practice the only way to "maintain strong consensus" is to get enough Bitcoin stakeholders to internalize the idea (thereby making it a widely-shared norm).
Since we agree this extreme consensus idea is fatally flawed, it's a matter of trying to figure out how people bumbled into the error, whether as a real hidden assumption or a fake excuse that they should have realized was too thin to be convincing. The confusion with Nakamoto consensus kicks up dust here, too, even for many on the large block side. Everyone runs whatever code they want, indeed it is obvious, yet Theymos and LukeJr (to mention two I recall) have all sorts of twisted ways of obscuring this, such as labeling XT an altcoin.

I used to think it was a post hoc justification, but too many of the arguments didn't make sense unless it was the original concern. I might not have nailed this idea completely, but I'm pretty convinced there is something very odd going on in the idea of how Core/BS supporters think Bitcoin actually works, because whenever they touch on it in comments everything about it seems bizarro.

Greg doesn't help, by constantly creating diversions like talking about how hard forks may make devs legally liable for something as he did today.
[doublepost=1464274707][/doublepost]Greg is a whirling dervish in this thread. He seems to have mastered the art of misdirection. Some of those comments read like they should be examples in a textbook on manipulation techniques. "Always keep the enemy confused."

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4l564f/bitcoin_core_nonirc_meeting_summary_for_20160520/

Here's a great example of manipulative writing:

 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

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Here's another howler from Greg:


I'll post his last paragraph here because he keeps editing it, emphasis mine:

As I said, years ago-- there be dragons. Fortunately, there are many ways to move forward with technology and hardforks aren't even the most interesting of them just due to the high compatibility costs. The fact that they're difficulty [he means the fact that hard forks are difficult] is both unavoidable and good news for Bitcoin's long term value proposition.
It seems to me the bold shows he thinks Extreme Consensus is a driving force of Bitcoin's long term value.

And in the link he gave, there is the very clearest statement of Extreme Consensus I have found yet:

When Bitcoin's behavior is merely a system of computer rules you can trust it because you (or people you trust who read code) can point to the rules and say "it is so because of cryptographic proof, the mathematics of the program make it thusly". If the rules are up for revision by popularity contest or whatever system you like— then you have a much more complicated trust equation where you have to ask if that process will make decisions which are not only wise but also respect your needs. Who will cast the ballots, who will count them? Even if the process is democratically fair— is it something that lets the wolves vote to eat the sheep or does the process somehow respect personal liberty and autonomy? All the blockchain distributed consensus stuff starts sounding easy by comparison.

An alternative theory I present is: if some hardforking change is so valuable, why couldn't an altcoin prove that value and earn its place in the free market and eventually supplant the inferior alternative? Why is that inferior to changing the immutable (within the context of the system) rules when doing so is against the will of any of its users[1]? Or to use the language of libertarian dogma: Must change only come by force? Can any blockchain cryptocurrency survive if it becomes a practice and perception that the underlying software contract will be changed?

Hardforks: There be technological and philosophical dragons.

[1] if the rules are subtly broken and ~everyone agrees that they /must/ be changed that is another matter and not the subject I'm talking about.
 

AdrianX

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I don't know, dude. I'd view the belief that "Bitcoin loses all value if we don't maintain strong consensus" as one possible justification for the norm. But in practice the only way to "maintain strong consensus" is to get enough Bitcoin stakeholders to internalize the idea (thereby making it a widely-shared norm). And that's because everyone is always free to do whatever the hell they want in terms of the code they choose to run and the version of the ledger they choose to accept as valid. And fine, the arguments in support of "strong consensus" aren't that stupid. (I wasn't feeling very charitable yesterday.) But they're also not that good. I think they're pretty easily dispensed with. And I still strongly suspect that the "strong consensus" position is a post-hoc rationalization for the small-blockist position rather than the underlying worldview that gave rise to it.
I'm going to refer to what you're calling strong consensus as Extreme consensus. It comes down to governance and Nakamoto consensus is different because it doesn't require a centralized authority to define it whereas Extreme consensus the type Core are advocating requires a centralized authority to define.
 

freetrader

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forcefully hardforking [Bitcoin] would make them administrators of a virtual currency under regulatory rules
<looks at achievement badges>

[x] be your own bank

Realizes this one might be a neat addition:

[_] administrator of virtual currency

('cause why should those darn altcoins have all the fun?)

NOTE: not trying to lend credence to Gmax's theory here, just pointing out the slight incongruency with the supposed 'cypherpunk' mindset...
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

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Let me sketch what I see in Greg's quote from early 2013, line by line:

When Bitcoin's behavior is merely a system of computer rules you can trust it because you (or people you trust who read code) can point to the rules and say "it is so because of cryptographic proof, the mathematics of the program make it thusly". If the rules are up for revision by popularity contest or whatever system you like— then you have a much more complicated trust equation where you have to ask if that process will make decisions which are not only wise but also respect your needs.

He is dimly grasping toward the market. The rules are made and revised by the market, and that is why they reliably respect users needs, yet he believes they are made by having the rules be "immutable" like a social contract. He pins this on Nakamoto consensus and conflates it with "computer rules" which are irrelevant as far as what the market supports.

The "complicated trust equation" Greg fears is the market forces of self-interest, the ones Satoshi designed the whole system around, even if Satoshi only covered the miners in his scope of the market process. I would just add to Satoshi's view by including the investors, so that miners act as proxies for the investors, again, because of their own self-interest in having their coins' value be maximized.

Who will cast the ballots, who will count them? Even if the process is democratically fair— is it something that lets the wolves vote to eat the sheep or does the process somehow respect personal liberty and autonomy? All the blockchain distributed consensus stuff starts sounding easy by comparison.

The market! He doesn't grasp economics enough to see how market choice is totally different than democracy, plus he doesn't seem to take seriously the idea that "anyone can run whatever code they want," because he dismisses it by saying elsewhere in the linked post, "miners are irrelevant for a hardforking change: a miner that doesn' follow one that is followed by all the users simply isn't a miner anymore." The same logic Luke and Theymos use: essentially a semantic game where Bitcoin is somehow whatever he wants it to be, or whatever Extreme Consensus decides, with no reference to market prices of the respective forks, etc. Anyone running their own code is dismissed as "not running Bitcoin."

He implies that personal autonomy must be protected by Extreme Consensus, rather than the ability to fork, through that semantic flourish we saw Theymos ape so much a year ago when the censorship started and XT was branded an altcoin (until it would achieve 95% support).

An alternative theory I present is: if some hardforking change is so valuable, why couldn't an altcoin prove that value and earn its place in the free market and eventually supplant the inferior alternative? Why is that inferior to changing the immutable (within the context of the system) rules when doing so is against the will of any of its users[1]?

The Shitcoin theory of economics :) He seems to be saying, again, that Bitcoin is essentially rigid and if it can be outcompeted because of that by an altcoin, that is preferable to breaking Extreme Consensus and unleashing the dragons. "Just keep switching to new altcoins when the rigid consensus can no longer adapt. That'll make for some real sound money!" (No surprise Greg was/is a Bitcoin bear.)

Or to use the language of libertarian dogma: Must change only come by force? Can any blockchain cryptocurrency survive if it becomes a practice and perception that the underlying software contract will be changed?
This is the clearest single statement of Extreme Consensus I've found, of the "social contract" variety.

Hardforks: There be technological and philosophical dragons.
Hardforks: There be clown-car trebuchet wielding dipshits in beer-cup hats.

[1] if the rules are subtly broken and ~everyone agrees that they /must/ be changed that is another matter and not the subject I'm talking about.

Ah the 95% escape clause.
 
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cypherdoc

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looks like the 2MBHF coding by kore dev has been derailed esp given that 3 of the 4 kore reps that made the HK agreement (PT, Luke, Back, minus Corallo) attended the Swiss mtg:

[doublepost=1464277836,1464277194][/doublepost]the hypocrisy is clearly evident.

kore dev (30 some odd guys) have been ramming thru all the code changes they want over the years with SF's (no choice in the matter if you disagree except leaving) while any change the users want requires 95% "consensus".
 

freetrader

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Maxwell says an inconsiderate HF might "end up confiscating people's Bitcoins where they have them locked up with nlocktimed transactions."

Can anyone confirm that such transactions are out there already, and whether "an incompatible change [to] the transaction format of the running network" might truly risk "confiscating" such funds (assuming the change is not introducing SW)?

Is it possible to easily determine ALL the existing CLTV transactions and quantify the amount potentially at risk? (just a yes/no will do)
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

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kore dev (30 some odd guys) have been ramming thru all the code changes they want over the years with SF's (no choice in the matter if you disagree except leaving) while any change the users want requires 95% "consensus".
To clarify, I think the extreme-consensus idea is less a moral position than a "Bitcoin will break otherwise" position. Sometimes the moral aspect is mentioned, and they are interrelated since part of "it will break" is based on perception (and the other part is based presumably on the technical danger of having two chains), but SF's are given much more leeway because they aren't perceived as risking a "fatal split" in the actual network, even if they screw people over and degrade aspects of Bitcoin like RBF does.
 

awemany

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Oh no, he's one of the few sane voices. Sorry this is kinda late, but I can't keep up with all the messaging arenas.
That's sad, to see that he apparently left? @Justus Ranvier ?
By the way, what is going on with @rocks?

Though I can fully understand the desire and intent to leave Bitcoin, the level of idiocy now is highly discouraging.
And additionally, so is the derivative of idiocy - that seems to be positive, too. An unfortunate positive feedback loop, likely started by the well-known control freaks.
 

Roger_Murdock

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The confusion with Nakamoto consensus kicks up dust here, too, even for many on the large block side
Yeah, this is absolutely a real problem so I can sort of see how this might lead people astray and down the "strong consensus" path. Because Nakamoto consensus is designed to produce "consensus" in the strict, unanimous sense of the word:

consensus - a general agreement about something : an idea or opinion that is shared by all the people in a group

(emphasis added).

Nakamoto consensus allows everyone (who wishes to remain a part of the network) to reach perfect agreement about a shared history of transactions (although there's always some temporary ambiguity regarding the most recent transactions). And so some people might think: "Bitcoin is based on everyone agreeing so obviously it's critical that everyone (or essentially everyone) agree on any rule changes lest this critical consensus be destroyed." They don't understand that the blockchain's built-in incentive mechanisms are what produces consensus. So it's not the case that "we need overwhelming consensus before hard-forking." Rather, it's the case that the blockchain will produce "overwhelming consensus" notwithstanding hard-fork attempts (whether those attempts are ultimately successful or not). Or to put it yet another way, and referring back to my stupid car / restaurant analogy:

“Consensus” in Bitcoin isn’t about getting everyone to agree on the destination ahead of time. Consensus is about “staying in the car" (abiding by the same set of compatible rules / agreeing on an identical ledger history) because the network effect is that important.
 

freetrader

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Good news @Zangelbert Bingledack ! We only have to release a fork and the arbitrage possibilities will be litigated into existence!

P.S. I think the above is blatant, unabashed nonsense, but you might want to add an element of 'creation through destruction' to your budding mental model of Core supporters.
[doublepost=1464279281][/doublepost]
That's sad, to see that he apparently left? @Justus Ranvier ?
By the way, what is going on with @rocks?

Though I can fully understand the desire and intent to leave Bitcoin, the level of idiocy now is highly discouraging.
And additionally, so is the derivative of idiocy - that seems to be positive, too. An unfortunate positive feedback loop, likely started by the well-known control freaks.
Hold on, Justus was last seen here : Yesterday at 7:20 AM.
He's just busy!

Haven't heard anything from @rocks at all since Apr 13. I hope someone has an email of his to check whether he's alright.

CC: @kyuupichan
 
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cypherdoc

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even Goldman beginning to see the light.

this is really good news and is totally consistent with our theory that Bitcoin should be primarily about Sound Money vs smart contracts. in this sense, i don't see a threat coming from R3 or private blockchains; they may actually be needed to move trading of stocks, bonds, or large assets to private blockchains which also require adjudication by the legal system when necessary. the only question is if private blockchains ARE necessary. but if these systems arise, they should identify users and only allow trusted participants for their specific purposes (one shouldn't lose their house just b/c they erase their private key). Bitcoin can still become a world reserve currency under these circumstances:

The distributed ledger used for Bitcoin is a public ledger that can be read from or written to by anyone who wishes to transact, making it an ideal vehicle for public transactions between individuals who don’t know each other. In fact, the public nature of the Bitcoin ledger is one of the most appealing and novel features of the distributed database.

https://news.bitcoin.com/goldman-sachs-bitcoin-ideal-public/
 

Roger_Murdock

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The challenge there is accomplishing restructuring without the risk of effectively confiscating people's Bitcoins, as most non-compatible changes risks making presigned nlocktimed transactions invalid. E.g. the hardfork in Bitcoin Classic /might/ directly confiscate coins because instead of fixing the quadratic-in-size transaction validation hash computation as segwit does, it just imposes a new transaction size limit. If there are coins locked up with nlocktime beyond that limit, those coins would be lost by that kind of change. (It's unlikely that that particular one does, but there is no way to be sure it doesn't)
Can one of you more technical folks comment on this? Also, if Classic is imposing a new (and presumably more restrictive?) transaction size limit, isn't that a soft-fork-type change (notwithstanding the fact that it may be bundled in with a hard-fork-type change to the block size limit)? I don't see how removing / broadening rules (which, again, I thought was the definition of a hard fork) could ever make old presigned transactions suddenly invalid? If anything, it seems that the reverse would be true and that this would be a danger of poorly-designed soft forks, or am I missing something obvious?
 

Melbustus

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So it occurs to me that this boils down to two things:

1) On a technical level, chain consensus is done via a simple >50% majority on a mathematical level. That's how proof-of-work chains work, and the only we know how to do permissionless consensus. No getting around that.

2) On a social level, humans can call whatever string of blocks whatever they want. Core dev and supporters refuses to call a chain that includes a >1MB block "Bitcoin". But that's just them.

In my opinion, we've already forked, and the coins we all hold are no longer Bitcoin. Bitcoins, as I know them, only exist as free-market currency units, devoid of price controls and central economic engineering. Now that MAX_BLOCK_SIZE is close to or smaller than the average demand for blockspace (due to the deliberate inaction of a few people), I now hold tokens which are not subject to free-market dynamics, but are subject to centrally-planned price controls. Those tokens aren't bitcoins.

If my UTXOs subsequently exist on a chain where MAX_BLOCK_SIZE is much larger than average demand for blockspace, such that the price of transactions is determined by the free-market for blockspace, then my UTXOs will be properly called Bitcoins once again.

But make no mistake that we've forked, and the current chain that sha256 miners are building on is not Bitcoin.
 

cypherdoc

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Can one of you more technical folks comment on this? Also, if Classic is imposing a new (and presumably more restrictive?) transaction size limit, isn't that a soft-fork-type change (notwithstanding the fact that it may be bundled in with a hard-fork-type change to the block size limit)? I don't see how removing / broadening rules (which, again, I thought was the definition of a hard fork) could ever make old presigned transactions suddenly invalid? If anything, it seems that the reverse would be true and that this would be a danger of poorly-designed soft forks, or am I missing something obvious?
my recollection is that Gavin moved away from the simple 100kB tx size limitation to deal with the sigops attack and to a max # sigops operations ~80K or so? i'll have to go back and check.
[doublepost=1464281284][/doublepost]as well, i'd bet that there is indeed a number of nLockTime tx's out there that could be HF'd out of existence. but that's part of the price to be paid for re-instituting Satoshi's Bitcoin to a p2p payment system. not ideal but necessary to get away from kore dev.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

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We have forked, but the ledger hasn't, so I still consider the coins we all hold to be bitcoins (i.e., entries on the Bitcoin ledger). The ledger is just currently being updated by a protocol I disagree with, though importantly I don't disagree with any of the rules that define the monetary properties (if I did, then I'd say Bitcoin is no longer existing, being perverted in both protocol and ledger).
 
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