Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

BldSwtTrs

Active Member
Sep 10, 2015
196
583
I think the miners were testing their new massive hashrate yesterday but didn't deploy it fully until the new difficulty adjustment so they can exploit 2016 new blocks under relatively low difficulty.

As a result we will have 2016 blocks of very fast blocks. The soaring of unconfirmed transactions will start only in 2016 blocks.
[doublepost=1464128586][/doublepost]"things need to get worse before they can get better in Bitcoin." Fred Ehrsam

I think he is right. I see the continuation of the bear market until a new dawn.
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410

With the lack of ability to process transactions the last days combined with the extreme increase of hashpower in the same time period (which gives shorter average time between blocks and the ability to actually process more. Like 1 mb every 8 minutes), I predict epic clusterfuck the next 24 hours. (Please don't kill me if I'm wrong).

I actually want a massive clogging as soon as possible. Followed by a natural crash in price (because the peer to peer payment network is currently useless).

Why? Because I think a bad event like that is the only thing that could make the miners think straight and install Unlimited, Classic or XT.

The harder and sooner, the better. Like taking of a band aid from a hairy part of your body.

After that: To the moon! ┗(°0°)┛

I will spend my bitcoins on this:
 

Peter R

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,398
5,595
Sorry for asking rather than looking, but did a BU client for OSX get released?
Sort of. There is a DMG file for download here. I actually tested this by trying to install it on a Mac Mini but it crashes at start-up (I didn't file a bug report, however). The DMG package for Classic installs fine on the same computer. I suspect more than just me had this problem installing on OSX.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 79b79aa8

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995

xhiggy

Active Member
Mar 29, 2016
124
277
It would be greatly appreciated if some of you with a more reasonable view would speak out against this.
[doublepost=1464048608][/doublepost]

Again, I would really appreciate if some of you with a more reasonable attitude would speak up against this type of comment.

OK, engaging with you is likely a waste of time because in the past, you have shown you are more than willing to adopt positions without researching them in any way. You should sit back and learn what you are talking about, before you participate with such an air of certainty.
 

xhiggy

Active Member
Mar 29, 2016
124
277
I mean it in a literal sense. At the time when Classic nodes irrevocably commit to eliminate the 1MB cap, (i.e. the point of no return) exactly 250 of the last 1,000 blocks opposed Classic. (i.e. it is not possible for the opposition to be 249 blocks or less)
[doublepost=1464087259][/doublepost]
So what? lets say it went like this |blocks 0-250 support core| blocks 750-1000 support classic| then we know it's time to switch to classic. It doesn't make sense to limit transactions for the sake of those who can't handle big blocks, what do we owe them?
[doublepost=1464132523,1464131902][/doublepost]
Firstly, to clarify, yes you are correct in that I absolutely would "hold on to strong consensus even if it destroyed the price". I do not see the network as a neat CS project more than money.

Let me try to explain again. When Bitcoin came out I thought it was an interesting and unique concept, precisely because I thought you required strong consensus in order to force changes on the network which effect a minority. This meant this new type of money protected minority rights in a way they were not protected with traditional money like USD. If Bitcoin turns out not to have this characteristic, then in my view, it is not sufficiency different from the USD to be interesting, in my mind the value of bitcoin in that scenario should fall to zero.
Why do you expect anyone else to feel this way, or care about your ideals? You have fetishized "strong consensus". I say 75% is incredibly strong and revolutionary in the world of monetary policy. In my opinion a lower consensus threshold will be needed as bitcoin truly goes global to prevent malicious actors from blocking proposals. This type of thinking is leading you to a specific view for the future of bitcoin. There is no argument based on anything outside of your ideals to think that the value of bitcoin will fall to zero because of a 75% consensus threshold.

I am tempted to say that you deliberately want to use strong language like "the value of bitcoin in that scenario should fall to zero." In order to scare people, the other possibility is that you yourself are scared and clinging to extreme ideas.

The only innovation in bitcoin for you is the needing of strong consensus to implement new rules? You must know there is much much more to bitcoin than that.
 
Last edited:

VeritasSapere

Active Member
Nov 16, 2015
511
1,266
I have been absent from this forum for some time, but I have been lurking, observing and learning. I caught up on some of the discussion on this thread. I want to thank everyone that is contributing, I really do appreciate the insights. I hope to contribute more as well and share some of my own thoughts.

@jonny1000 You say that strong consensus is required, in other words that everyone has to agree, this is represented by the ninety-five percent proof of work requirement. However, if that is the condition that is required in order to change any of the “consensus” rules within Bitcoin, then I am convinced that Bitcoin will be doomed to never change. Because “consensus” in this sense of the word is impossible amongst large groups of people, this is exactly why we need governance mechanisms for when large groups of people come together and organize. If this was not the case political philosophy would not even be a field of study, which it obviously is. There are no historical examples where a large group of people were able to achieve consensus and change the rules of any governance system.

Bitcoin does have a governance mechanism, my theory on how I think it works or at least should work, is that the economic majority rules Bitcoin, however in effect it is ruled through proxy because proof of work best aligns the incentive for the party that actually has the “vote”, the miners. The pools act as proxy for the miners, pools behave in a similar way to representatives within a representative democracy. In turn the miners act as a proxy for the economic majority. Since the miners are incentivized to follow the economic majority. In other words the market rules Bitcoin, Bitcoin relies on the economic self-interest of the masses.

I think that Core is presently subverting this governance mechanism, I can explain what I mean by this. Fundamentally the idea of a central and single reference client is untenable and completely incompatible with the founding principles of Bitcoin. Open source projects are essentially and in most cases necessarily dictatorships by definition, and this is certainly the case with Core, because of the veto powers that exist within such a GitHub project.

Therefore, the only way that the governance of such a project can be fair and free is for it to be distributed among many open source projects and development teams, which people can then freely choose from. For Core to take actions and make deals with certain pools and miners so that they specifically do not switch clients and only use Core, while promoting the idea that a hard fork by a competing development team is by definition an attack on Bitcoin, this conception is the greatest subversion of the governance mechanism of Bitcoin. Attempting to convince the people involved that they do not have this freedom of choice and that they have to essentially follow the “authority”, because of “consensus”. Taking away peoples freedom by convincing them that they do not have the choice, even modern democracies can be subverted in this fashion, by changing the underlying culture and understanding of the participants involved.

The ability to hard fork the protocol is the very mechanism that ensures the continued freedom and decentralization of the protocol. Hard forks are the primary mechanism that keeps the power of any development team in check. This capability lies at the very heart of the freedom and voluntarism that Bitcoin represents.

With a hard fork people can choose to stay behind if they want, when they do not agree with the new rules that are being proposed. This ability represents peoples very freedom of choice and it should not be feared, but embraced, if twenty-five percent of Bitcoins participants do not want a particular rule then the chain should be able to split, satisfying both parties as long as they both think it was worth splitting the chain over these particular rule changes, since there will be negative consequences to splitting the chain, incentivizing everyone to get along. This can be referred to as “strong consensus”, however over time as pressure builds up and the issue becomes contentious enough such a split becomes justified and I am also convinced that over the long term this will be inevitable. The ability that Bitcoin has to split under this scenario has actually gracefully solved the age problem of the tyranny of the majority. People are not forced to follow the majority, they can simply split off or alternatively even adopt a different cryptocurrency and live under the rules that they choose. Therefore, the only way that true consensus can be achieved over continuous rule changes is through splitting the chain, this is the only way that all of the participants involved can remain truly free in terms of making their own choices without having to switch ledgers.

The absolutist conception of “consensus” in governance is so precarious, analogues can even be drawn with the psychology of fascism. That we all have to agree with each other for Bitcoin to be strong and for it to succeed, because it is the only one true cryptocurrency. Furthermore, that anyone opposing this “authority” of “consensus” must be the enemy and therefore must be attacked and censored. This type of mentality where anyone who opposes Core is attacking the network is deeply flawed and also approaches authoritarianism in its mentality. Obviously consensus among large groups of people is impossible, though the illusion is easier to maintain when there is a strong central authority that everyone can agree with.

There should not be one true chain. People have different ideologies and beliefs therefore they should be adopting different chains that best represents their own beliefs. Bitcoin has brought about the free competition of currency. Now we have a choice, the freedom of choice to choose what economic policy we choose to follow. There will be many different dominant cryptocurrencies just like how today there are many different dominant religions, ideologies, genres, philosophies and cultures. Cryptocurrency can also be a form of human expression, to think that we will all be able to find agreement around a single ledger to me does not seem realistic.

The governance mechanism of Bitcoin might be fundamentally flawed, however it is still too early to know whether this is the case, however I am confident that if that is the case then the solution to this problem already exists within the alternative cryptocurrencies. Maybe one of the greatest pressures that Bitcoin can face is from the competition of other cryptocurrencies. Though in many ways this is also a victory for Bitcoin and the tentative dream of Satoshi. So I feel good promoting, using and investing in more alternatives to Bitcoin. It is not that hard to hold multiple cryptocurrencies especially once you already own Bitcoin. Bitcoin might not end up being the dominant cryptocurrency of the future, however the dream that Satoshi has helped bring into the world is very much alive and thriving. Which is why I think that if Bitcoin continues to block the economic stream, restricting its growth. The flow of use, capital and utility will simply spill over into the best alternatives.
 
Last edited:

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
@xhiggy
Ha ha ha, you are certainly not a farmed jonny1000 account!
I asked you because he kind of said bye bye, and then your passive account came alive.
I guess you just have lurked some time. Or just had a normal life.

Welcome sir!

I noticed one thing. jonny1000 wrote probably several hundred lines of logical opinion stuff the last few days. But his last sentence, after one person told him to go away, was to beg us to reconsider the 75% limit and go for a 95% limit. (Us? We're the fucking Unlimited guys, not the Classic crew? Or both ;)

I'm 45 years old, and now I'm drunk. These two facts put me in an exclusive intellectual elite. And my Sherlock Holmes intuition tells me this:
jonny1000 was a tired promotor after debating a lot, and ended on the pay off. The last line he wrote. Which was the purpose of his engagement on this forum.

His job was to make Classic change to a 95% voting scenario.

Well fuck him! It's going to 51% very soon!

Cheers everybody!
 

Erdogan

Active Member
Aug 30, 2015
476
855
Bitcoin: Free market sound money for the world.

We have many excellent contributors, and even visitors like johnny1000 added to the total pool of knowledge. (To be honest, we used a few weeks to conclude that there doesn't really have to be any limit to the blocksize, or any parameter).

I just want to harp a bit on the economics of money where I think some posters are wrong, and therefor have unnecessary anxiety: The small blocks and lower value, because money velocity. Here we go:

The value of a coin is different for each individual, and the price is the historical experience from a voluntary trade, the price is the fraction of units of a pair of some stuff and units of some other stuff. Dollars if that is the trade, (X BTC / Y USD or X USD / Y BTC), or something entirely different. When individuals change their view of the value of one of those things, a trade may happen, and we can discover the price, which immediately becomes history. This is the market. There is no production (fixed 21 mill coin limit) and no consumption (the money just moves to another owner). The demand is someone in the world wanting more and acting on it, the supply is someone wanting less and therefore offers to sell them. This can be unified into demand to hold more or less, or just the degree of demand, aggregated from all the persons in the world.

Volume of trades is not so relevant. Trades occur when individuals change their minds on the value nonuniformly. If everybody at the same time change their consideration of the value up by 10%, the value is up, but there are no trades.

Some change of ownership must be possible, because the liquidity is so important for good money. If it were not easy to sell them for something else of value, there is no reason to hold them in the first place.

What is the bitcoin volume per unit of time anyway? The blockchain does not give the answer. We don't know what is traded, if anything, and what is change, and if a transaction is just a user managing his wallets. Then there are off-chain transactions, like all the trades on the exchanges, internal transactions (between different coin owners ) in a wallet provider, like localbitcoins. Then we have paper wallet/chip wallet transfers where the secret code defining ownership is traded directly.

With fiat, one money type is used ubiquitously in an area or jurisdiction, called "an economy". Bitcoin is world money, and it is not the primary money anywhere. The velocity of fiat in Keynes' infamous formula does not include financial transactions, it really is at best another measure of total production of consumables in "the economy", at worst it is a number derived from the money quantity/price/production formula, therfore a number that makes the formula correct. As we know, you can not compute the value, it is in the minds of the market actors.

TL;DR, this means that small blocks for a while longer can not directly harm the value of a bitcoin, it can only indirectly harm the value because it creates doubts about the future of the system. Currently no other coin can compete in being sound money and having the same liquidity. Everybody can just be assured, but by all means please continue the information fight on all open fora.
 
Last edited:

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
Aaand while I'm on a rant:
You just don't change the bitcoin code (Segwit) to facilitate a layer 2 system while it's in an experimental stage. Make thunder&lightning first, test it on different levels, THEN adjust the bitcoin code. Argghhh!!!
[doublepost=1464139220][/doublepost]Jihan Wu needs to see his future burn in flames until he realize that he must push some buttons on his computer to change a simple constant. Give me transactions stuck in mempool and price going to hell ASAP!
 

xhiggy

Active Member
Mar 29, 2016
124
277
@Norway

I lurk around usually, maybe I'll contribute more in the future. I prefer to browse with a nice bowl of sativa. :whistle:

For me bitcoin represents the ability to redefine our institutions. Introducing the lightning network at this stage of the game, with such a low price would make non payment related applications very expensive. Core has come to support some strange priorities that don't fit together, and their leaders are losing it trying to make it fit. It's a weird situation.
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
@xhiggy
I hear you! Core support priorities that "don't fit together". To me, it's very simple. The top devs of core are corrupted. We all were fascinated by the way bitcoin could not be attacked. Because there is no door to knock on, nobody to put in jail etc. But the single point of failiure is a centralised dev team. And they attacked that "weak" spot.

But nothing to worry about. Bitcoin will find it's way eventually. The weak spot is not a weak spot. It's open source. The system will route around core. God, I'm seriously drunk now...
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
Synthesizing what I'm hearing publicly in media from Lombrozo and other apparatchiks my suspicion is that Core (if it doesn't implode by then) will increase blocksize by imposing Flexcap on a soft-fork extension blocks maximum-cruft scheme, where they centrally will control tx fees by a roundabout mechanism put in place under the auspices of "fixing incentives".

Once they lock in these kind of softforks, then the only purpose of a hardfork is housekeeping in terms of making the block header a little cleaner (if they even ever bother anyway).

At this point developers would represent insane systemic risk to miners, because devs would be in the position to dictate the extent to which miners provide and get compensated for security over the base layer of the ecosystem, effectively creating the business model for layer-2 services by pure fiat.
 
Last edited:

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
Think of how many amazing pump-and-dump altcoin scripts / marketing campaigns are going to come out of Bitcoin having a crufty HIMEM.SYS / EMM386.EXE style approach to scaling. The arguments that Bitcoin is the Myspace of crypto practically write themselves.
 

yrral86

Active Member
Sep 4, 2015
148
271
@jonny1000

95% prevents the many from stomping on the few. However, it enables the few to control the many. Unless you make the assumption that Bitcoin is perfect and no change is always the best course of action, mandating 95% consensus is opening Bitcoin to a major attack every time a limitation is found that requires a hard for to work around.

The economic problems of the world are not caused by the masses, they are caused by those with inordinate power. 95% is giving any body that can amass 5% of hashing a tremendous level of power over the masses.
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
And what was it all about? In the heat of the battle, it's easy to forget.
A song that I love is this. And from 1st of january 2016, bail in for banks is legal in EU and Norway. From Zhou Tonged and Cyprus with love, a classic:

 
  • Like
Reactions: Dusty

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
I don't think so, I think interests of miners and holders are aligned.
Miners are apparently just too stupid to defend their interests.
Maybe. But who are those Chinese Miners? I have zero trust into those idiots. Is so much stupidity probable? To me, the probability that they represent the CPC is at least as high.
Anyway, the community is stupid enough to enable this grotesque situation where Bitcoin (a libertarian project) is produced in a totalitarian territory. And the selfdeclared inventor of Bitcoin (minus inflation) became the de facto president not just of Blockstream but of the Bitcoin project, which he is ruling together with the CTO (who calls him a dipshit now). So there is hope. The 'strong consensus' within the Politburo is getting the first cracks.
 
Last edited: