Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

satoshis_sockpuppet · Mar 7, 2016

Theymos on vacation? Change of plan from censorship to pure sockpuppetry?

Zangelbert Bingledack · Mar 7, 2016

Someone should redub the ents video. All in fun of course

Saruman = Greg? Adam?
Isengard = Core?
Sauron = Austin?
Mordor = Blockstream?
Orthanc = /r/Bitcoin?
The Uruk-hai = mods?
Ents = long-term holders, old coins
Breaking the dam = unblocking the stream
Gavin at Core = Gandalf the Grey?
Gavin after leaving Core = Gandalf the White?

sgbett · Mar 7, 2016

The One (mb) Ring!

freetrader · Mar 7, 2016

Blockchain.info CEO Peter Smith reports on his views after round table:

https://medium.com/@OneMorePeter/bitcoin-scaling-and-choices-bed96a76e637#.6io3g2bh9

cypherdoc · Mar 7, 2016

Christoph Bergmann said:
Why I don't want to use Lightning

There seems to be a consensus in the herd that bitcoin is not a cryptocurrency, but a settlement network for second layers like lightning or sidechains.

Even if lightning networks works and doesn't lead to wallet complexity explosion, but is trustless, secure, cheap and fast - I don't want to use it. Why? Because it's not bitcoin. I want to send Bitcoin from one adress to another and see it in the blockchain. I want to have my private keys and use them for doing a transaction, wherever I am, whatever hardware and system I have, no matter what time it is. I don't want to need to put my bitcoin in some payment hub to start using them, I don't want to open a payment channel and multisig with some hub to accept Bitcoin. I just want to use the wonderful simplicity of the system by accepting bitcoins on an adress, saving them with a private key and transaction them on other adresses. Lightning can't do this.

With sidechains it is the same / worse. More than one year ago I mailed with a technician from blockstream. I asked how they plan to secure the sidechain and if they want to integrate a native token to incentivice miners. He answered they don't know by now. Now they seem to know - they do the same like the banks are planning: make a fedoration of private nodes that trust each other. Same thing like ripple, same thing like paypal. That's not bitcoin, that's a private system.

But even if they succeed in making a public sidechain (I can't imagine how), it would be NOT bitcoin. It would be another chain, with no comparable security as bitcoin, while it stucks on some strange adress on the real blockchain. And like lightning it would mean that, when I buy bitcoin, I first have to bring it to the sidechain before I can use it. In the sidechain-whitepaper is written that you need 24 hours to have the coin on the sidechain. After I asked, the technician explained that it can be faster depending on the needed security. Great.

And so many node-maintainers and miners and community members and developers believe that this is the only possible and correct future for bitcoin the currency. This IS frustrating.

More frustrating is the REASON why all this people believe this: because core said bitcoin can't scale. Yes. This is an overwhelming mass of authoritarism I never expected to find in a community around free money.

After 300+ posts of battling with brg444 et al between Oct 2014 & Jan 2015 on SC's, I finally came to the conclusion that I shouldn't worry about it any more because it just won't work and nobody will want to use it for exactly all the reasons you elucidated and and about a dozen more. You get to this conclusion after having used native Bitcoin for a few years, the way it used to be before Blockstream. It just works so well and simply and cheaply and plenty fast. Still does today without spam attacks that have only become a thing since last July as blocks got up over 750kB. That's the advantage of historical perspective that early adopters in this thread have. Personally, if you'll recall, I've tried to participate at least in every small possible way in Bitcoin in the past to get a better understanding of the system. I think I have pretty good experience in that regard as a hodler, business owner, pool miner, solo miner, consultant, trader, coffee buyer, donator, educator/advocate/troller mainly through this thread since Aug 2011. Experience helps.
[doublepost=1457362900][/doublepost]

Christoph Bergmann said:
posting in r/bitcoin, getting many upvotes in minutes and gilded:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/49c7ij/so_consens_here_seems_to_be_that_bitcoin_is_no/

Hey, how can I quote reddit?

That's a brilliant tactical post. Had no idea it was you when I started skimming this morning. Btw, the WP stated that it takes 2d minimum to clear the 2wp because of its SPV nature. I also noticed the 1mb trolls out in force doing all sorts of contortions trying to deal with this one.
[doublepost=1457363169,1457362310][/doublepost]

Norway said:
@Christoph Bergmann
I can't believe that your post on /r/bitcoin has survived 50 minutes and is the second most popular post!

Good post, btw.

Stirring the hornets nest.

I'll bet brg444 et al are pissed as hell they don't have the benefit of censorship right now.
[doublepost=1457363306][/doublepost]You can tell from the vehemence that Kam's presentation generated yesterday that a lot of 1mb folk have a lot of money riding on being able to suppress Bitcoin.

sgbett · Mar 7, 2016

Yes a fabulous post. I'm too of the opinion that it's mostly just a waiting game. The small blockers have nothing, arguing with them is futile because they don't logic. I hardly post now on Amy if the regular channels as I feel i am just feeding trolls.

I think the next major development is for Antpool to release their voting option.

Id say the classic movement is like a glacier. It's slow but seems largely unstoppable. I think the true underlying (original) philosophy of Bitcoin that everyone holds makes its success inevitable. It cannot be co-opted. Block stream have massively underestimated bitcoin's resilience.

Norway · Mar 7, 2016

@sgbett
"Id say the classic movement is like a glacier. It's slow but seems largely unstoppable."

Agreed. And I think the Classic movement is the same as the XT movement. And Unlimited.

cypherdoc · Mar 7, 2016

@Norway

Given the possible change in attitude of reddit admin, you should appeal your ban.
[doublepost=1457364132][/doublepost]As a settlement network, Bitcoin should be able to move $millions in a single swoop. Who here thinks anything but a crash in the price would result from a single one of these?

Norway · Mar 7, 2016

@cypherdoc
Good idea. I'll appeal my ban.

EDIT: I started emptying my ChangeTip wallet before I appeal my ban, just in case. (Reddit login to ChangeTip). It said that it could take 24 hours to withdraw from ChangeTip. I'll appeal when I have the coinz on my address.

Could somebody with exclusive membership of reddit make a link post on /r/bitcoin to Peter Smith's blog? (If it isn't censored, something weired but positive is going on.)

EDIT2: Nevermind, somebody posted it on /r/bitcoin. Let's see if it makes it to the first page...

sickpig · Mar 7, 2016

sickpig said:
what an arrogant attitude. all of them. but Peter is arrogant while being flat out wrong.

limit was introduced by satoshi based on inputs by Hal Finney and others.

The plan was since the very first moment to remove the block size limit in the future. I.e. it has conceived as a temporary measure. Relevant btctalk link from saroshi (Oct the 4th, 2010)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg15366#msg15366

(snip)

I'm usually a nice guy, but I've to say that Paul is quite an unpleasant person. This is how he ended our exchange on Bradley Kam's talk

how nice of him. quintessential small blockist?

Unfortunately the rest of the conversation is quite useless, though. It's pretty difficult to have an argument with someone who denied a fact.

dwaltrip · Mar 7, 2016

Peter Smith's (blockchain.info) post on medium is getting a heavy amount of downvotes on r/bitcoin (48% downvoted)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/49cyc4/bitcoin_scaling_and_choices_peter_smith_ceo/

Christoph Bergmann · Mar 7, 2016

sgbett said:
Yes a fabulous post. I'm too of the opinion that it's mostly just a waiting game. The small blockers have nothing, arguing with them is futile because they don't logic. I hardly post now on Amy if the regular channels as I feel i am just feeding trolls.

Thank you. I think we need a daily dose to make it clear on r/bitcoin that we are now talking of a settlement network and not a p2p cash. They should learn to know every day what they support.

about the waiting game / glacier: I don't think. I've become extremely pessimistic the last days. I think segwit will bring us some relief and will reduce the classic-movement. By than people know that bitcoin is no payment-network and the growth of transaction volume will simply flat out.

@sickpig

I can't help myself, but I have the impression that the asshole-quote is very high in camp small blocks. Maybe this is my bias, but the impression stays.

cypherdoc · Mar 7, 2016

by definition, a settlement layer requires a monetary unit that needs to be accepted universally by everyone everywhere worldwide. examples incl gold and the $. along with every other fiat reserve currency that has ever existed in history.

now tell me idiots, is Bitcoin anywhere near this definition?

Christoph Bergmann · Mar 7, 2016

dwaltrip said:
Peter Smith's (blockchain.info) post on medium is getting a heavy amount of downvotes on r/bitcoin (48% downvoted)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/49cyc4/bitcoin_scaling_and_choices_peter_smith_ceo/

Now we have
- brian armstrong
- gavin andresen
- peter smith
- the antminer-ceo

heavily disappointed of the roundtable and of core personally. And no waking up.

cypherdoc · Mar 7, 2016

Christoph Bergmann said:
I can't help myself, but I have the impression that the asshole-quote is very high in camp small blocks. Maybe this is my bias, but the impression stays.

can this be stickied?

satoshis_sockpuppet · Mar 7, 2016

Norway said:
@sgbett
"Id say the classic movement is like a glacier. It's slow but seems largely unstoppable."

Agreed. And I think the Classic movement is the same as the XT movement. And Unlimited.

I'd love to share your optimism.

cypherdoc · Mar 7, 2016

Norway · Mar 7, 2016

@satoshis_sockpuppet
Hell yeah, I'm optimistic! I expect bloated mempool, stuck transactions and falling price before miners get their heads out of their asses and fork. But I think it will happen. I am also very optimistic about on-chain scaling. Both short term and long term.

Norway · Mar 7, 2016

After five hours, @Christoph Bergmann 's post is still ruling on top of /r/bitcoin.
And after some downvote, the blogpost of the CEO of Blockchain.info has made it to the first page.

If the censorship truly has stopped on /r/bitcoin, I think we have a good chance of fighting the trolls there. I believe we outnumber the smallblockers. And we have the reasonable arguments.

Maybe it's soon time to make an effort to remove the hiding of upvote/downvote-points on /r/bitcoin.

cypherdoc · Mar 7, 2016

If the censorship truly has stopped on /r/bitcoin, I think we have a good chance of fighting the trolls there.

yes, i'm sure this is correct. just think back to last summer when we dominated the conversation with reasonable non trolling posts.

Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

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