Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

rocks

Active Member
Sep 24, 2015
586
2,284
A few months old, but yet another example of childish comments from behind the great core dev mailing list firewall.

http://coinjournal.net/who-asked-wlad-what-does-bitcoins-lead-developer-say-about-scaling-debate-exclusive/
If we’ve learned anything from the 2008 subprime bubble crisis it should be that nothing ever keeps growing exponentially, and assuming so can be hazardous....
Changing the rules in a decentralized consensus system is a very difficult problem and I don’t think we’ll resolve it any time soon.
Yes, Wladimir is comparing the FED induced housing bubble to Bitcoin's technical limitations, as a justification to not scale the system. I don't feel the need to pick this apart it is so absurd.

The inability for these guys to put together real positions or arguments I believe is a direct result of their deliberate move to disengage with the wider community and retreat behind the dev mailing list firewall years ago. I am beginning to think they do not have any idea of the broader discussions and developments that have taken place over the past several years, and as a result are complete unprepared to speak to anyone outside of their little circle.

If anything this is beginning to demonstrate that their move away from public forums and to their own mailing list was driven more by an inability to engage in or even follow discussions with the broader Bitcoin community, than by a need for a clutter free discussion forum.

In the end it has done them a huge disservice, they now have no idea what is happening in Bitcoin and are completely unable to have a real discussion.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
yes... I can see your perspective. BUT I feel that the traffic shaping code is very important for scalability. I mean, just because you have a 5, 25 or 50 MB connection doesn't mean that Bitcoin should be allowed to consume all of it.

Bitcoin is driving users away because Bitcoin Core does not play nice with other network uses like Netflix or Amazon video streaming. With traffic shaping on, you really just start it up and can completely forget that its even running.

You could head over to the BUIP discussion and make an argument; voting happens in a few days...
Still catching up. I just wanted to say thanks for this, it's been something that's been needed for a long time. Currently I'm running the tc.sh script to control bandwidth use but it really is something that needs to be built in. Much more so than many of the other things that are getting shoe-horned in.
 

Aquent

Active Member
Aug 19, 2015
252
667
I had idea that Bitcoin Unlimited said something like, "I disapprove of your settings, but I will defend to the death your right to set them."
Someone asked an interesting question and I suppose this will probably be one line of attack from the small blockers, should BU have a setting of setting the block reward?

My simple answer was that there was no support for any change to the block reward so that was a non starter.

I am wondering however, and am mindful of what @theZerg said about dev's time, but am wondering if we want to make Gavin's double spending alert system a configurable on/off feature? I think it would be very helpful. In fact some individuals on IRC have mentioned that they have gone ahead and patched BU with the double spending alert relay. I'd give this priority over any configurable rbf...
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
@Aquent

I think that implementing a block reward setting would be a potentially fatal mistake that undermines the mission of the project by providing opposition with totally unnecessary rhetorical ammunition.

In a larger self-indulgent Philosophy 101 sense (imagine the scene in Animal House where they're smoking pot with the professor!), I would justify the distinction between block size and block reward parameters as an illustration of the subjective nature of concept formation from an empricist perspective. Barring some kind of mystical Plato's Cave shadow of ideal "Bitcoin-ness", conceptualization involves perceiving concretes in reality and then subjectively deciding those attributes of the concretes that are essential and inessential to the concept. There is no definitive way to objectively "prove" that someone's concept is outright wrong, but there is certainly an evolutionary fitness to the formation of concepts, in the sense that certain formulations of concepts are more or less conducive to producing effective thought or action. Within the framework, if Bitcoin were a table, then to me subjectively blocksize would be an attribute like the color or material of the table, which is irrelevant to its classification of tableness, whereas to me considering block reward inessential would be akin to considering a chair and a table the same concept because they both conceivably could be made out of wood.
 

Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
223
1,453
Someone asked an interesting question and I suppose this will probably be one line of attack from the small blockers, should BU have a setting of setting the block reward?

My simple answer was that there was no support for any change to the block reward so that was a non starter.
Here's how I see it. Obviously we don't need to waste time and effort (risk introducing bugs, clutter the interface, etc.) lowering the "convenience barrier" on changes for which there's no interest, e.g., making it easier for a user to define their own reward schedule. (Anyone who thinks that coding up such a client is a good use of their time is of course free to do so.) But I also don't think we have any obligation to devote scarce time and resources lowering the convenience barrier on changes that we don't personally think are in Bitcoin's interest even if there is a non-trivial demand for those features. (Note that doesn't mean that it might not make sense to do so as part of a calculated effort to attract greater market share.) But my key point is that any charge of hypocrisy on that front, or suggestion that if we don't make some particular feature a configurable option we're somehow "just as bad as Core" is very misplaced. Look, the Core devs are obviously attempting to take Bitcoin in a direction that most of us strongly disagree with. And I think their apparent belief that they'll be successful in that endeavor in the face of strong opposition from Bitcoin stakeholders suggests a great deal of hubris on their part. But the Core devs are not the problem. (In fact, if you *really* believe in that whole "anti-fragility" thing, they may actually be doing Bitcoin a favor by helping to catalyze the decentralization of Bitcoin's development.) But no, the real problem is the users who haven't yet fully grokked what Bitcoin is all about and don't really understand that when we say "no one is in charge of Bitcoin," what we mean is "no one is in charge of Bitcoin." I know it's a cliche, but I can't help but be reminded of this cartoon.


Note that in this metaphor the people crowded around the guy with the podium (obviously representing Core) don't all support Core's chosen direction. In fact, we can imagine that many of those signs say "Raise the Block Size Limit Now!" But those people are still part of the problem by failing to recognize that we don't need Core's permission to raise the block size. They're the people fretting on Reddit that "Core is killing Bitcoin" and threatening to sell all their bitcoins for alts. The guy walking away? He's the guy running (or coding up) an alternative implementation like Bitcoin Unlimited. That's what we need more of.
 

YarkoL

Active Member
Dec 18, 2015
176
258
Tuusula
yarkol.github.io
The way I see it, a client ought to make it easy
to modify all those variables that reflect the individual
preferences of a node operator. The tolerance threshold for
misbehaving peers, for example and (of course) the acceptable
block sizes.

Block reward, block interval, difficulty etc. OTOH are consensus-critical
variables. Your communication will be ignored and your node banned if you
try to alter those.
 
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BldSwtTrs

Active Member
Sep 10, 2015
196
583
A few months old, but yet another example of childish comments from behind the great core dev mailing list firewall.

http://coinjournal.net/who-asked-wlad-what-does-bitcoins-lead-developer-say-about-scaling-debate-exclusive/

Yes, Wladimir is comparing the FED induced housing bubble to Bitcoin's technical limitations, as a justification to not scale the system. I don't feel the need to pick this apart it is so absurd.
Omg what a really stupid argument from him. I didn't expect to read something that silly from even someone with a IQ as low as 110. These guys are totally clueless about anything except their very narrow field of technical expertise. The problem is they don't know that they don't know. Unconscious ignorance can be dangerous for others when it affects people with somewhat high status and influence.

For the records, US Housing bubble stemmed mainly from two factors :
- the expansionary moneteray policy, which increased the demand for houses
- the reglementory constraints on housing construction in some states which prevented the supply to adjust for the new demand (not all states had stringent restrictions, that's why prices didn't rise evenly across the USA).
In other words it's top down constraints which prevented the market to clear the excess demand and therefore made prices rose exponentially before crashing. Exacly what will happen to transaction fees if Blockstream employees manage to enforce their will.
 
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Inca

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 28, 2015
517
1,679
@freetrader love that picture..

@BldSwtTrs i think a lot of the Core developers grew rich through bitcoin and now live a very insular existence where they can afford to ignore things they don't agree with. Plus often assume they are right about everything like they were about btc in the early days..

I have a suggestion for anyone interested. I anticipate a lot of new grass roots users coming across to Bitcoin Unlimited in the next few months. In preparation for that I think we should have some pages which give a step by step approach to setting up bitcoin unlimited on a VPS or home system for each of the supported OS's. Anyone keen? This could be integrated into the website with appropriate attribution.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
@Inca

I actually think core dev is relatively Bitcoin poor and have outlined my reasons for this in the past. Which is why they need to hang on to their dreams of Blockstream profits for dear life.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
[doublepost=1451578022][/doublepost]raise rates and then lower rates. sounds legit:


[doublepost=1451578306][/doublepost]hey guys, the BitcoinUnlimited.info website needs to be https ASAP.