Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
@cypherdoc link using the 'embed' link from reddit and media option here. That should do the trick.

Happy new year All.
what are you referring to?
[doublepost=1451581620,1451580725][/doublepost]i'm telling you, the Holiday retail season missed expectations, w/o even looking at the numbers:

Nordstrom:



Bed Bath & Beyond:



XRT retail ETF:




Macy's:



Sotheby's (not strictly retail but an auction house directly sensitive to high end speculation):

 
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Mengerian

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 29, 2015
536
2,597
Regarding Adam Back and 'developer consensus'... This term gets bandied about a lot, but is really a red herring.

The only consensus that matters is 'Nakamoto Consensus': Consensus on the Bitcoin network on the longest proof-of-work chain composed of valid blocks.

The best way to converge on a robust consensus on the Bitcoin network is to have decentralization at the development level.

We want a diverse decentralized ecosystem of investors, businesses, exchanges, and miners able to choose software that will follow consensus rules they desire. They have huge economic and game-theoretic incentives to follow the network 'Nakamoto' consensus, and only embark on changes to consensus that are clearly supported by the economic majority and are the least disruptive possible.

I actually think core dev is relatively Bitcoin poor and have outlined my reasons for this in the past. Which is why they need to hang on to their dreams of Blockstream profits for dear life.
Yes, I have seen quotes over the years from several Core developers, Friendenbach, Peter Todd, and Adam Back all spring to mind as saying they don't hold much bitcoin. Greg Maxwell has been a long time bear too.

Gavin and Jeff Garzik both seem to have good-sized holdings.
 

Windowly

Active Member
Dec 10, 2015
157
385
Is this a correct understanding of what will happen if BU controls 51% of the hashpower? I haven't seen it talked about much.


On a different note, let's crowdfund a Chinese translation of the BU website (which should only cost a couple hundred dollars) and the key articles and papers (which will cost more but is worth it). I'll definitely throw in some money and I'm sure others will as well. If we have the best Chinese-language bitcoin site that might go a long way to getting adopted by Chinese miners.

Update: Perhaps we can even convince Bitpay or Coinbase or Blockchain to sponsor a Chinese translation of the website and relevant articles. Toomin said that there wasn't very much knowledge among the Chinese miners about Bitcoin Unlimited; unfortunately we have none but ourselves to blame if we don't do a couple simple things to make it easier for them to get the information.
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
There's a widespread misconception that translation is a simple, machine-like process. You don't just take the English words and transpose them into Chinese words. It's not as simple as just hiring any old English-Chinese translator. The translator has to

1) be very familiar with Bitcoin in general or else the translation will be incoherent

2) actually understand all the concepts covered or else the translation will be far less persuasive (and could be worse than not having a translation at all)

This is especially true when dealing with a paradigm shift like BU, where without pitch-perfect phrasing the reader will likely walk away confused. Ideally the translator will also have experience debating BU with other Chinese native speakers.

That is why having someone here participating would be ideal. They could get up to speed, bring the debate to Chinese Bitcoin forums, self-correct on the phrasing for maximum impact battle-hardened in some Chinese forum discussion, and even bring valuable feedback about how to tailor the message for maximum impact to a Chinese audience (may involve changes to content of the text itself, not just a straight translation).

In other words, we need a Chinese PR agent who is up to speed on understandings here and can write well. Failing that, a Chinese bitcoiner who can be given a solid grasp on BU philosophy and significance.

Hiring a lay Chinese translator would just be a waste of money. A Bitcoin-conversant Chinese translator would be acceptable but not ideal unless they are willing to take time to understand BU. Any misunderstanding is liable to show through in the text and get BU written off in China, so a mediocre translation may be worse than none unless it is only about the broadest strokes and doesn't get into any technical details.

Also, someone who is interested in BU already will be most motivated to go the extra mile, and they probably won't charge an arm and a leg for it.
 
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davecgh

Member
Nov 30, 2015
28
51
From experience leading the translation team of technical products and providing training to the translators of said products in the past, I completely agree with what @Zangelbert Bingledack in regards to translation. There were many occasions during my training sessions where translators would say "Ohhh, oops I need to go fix that translation". Generic translations by speakers that are not well versed and/or trained in a technology and have experience discussing the technology with native speakers in both the source and target languages almost never come out well and are generally a waste of money. Even worse, they can often mislead the end users and cause quite a bit of confusion.
 
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Mengerian

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 29, 2015
536
2,597
@Justus Ranvier
It appears that the proposed implementation of Segregated Witness does not include compact Fraud Proof capability. The BIP lists it under "Future Extensions": https://github.com/CodeShark/bips/blob/segwit/bip-codeshark-jl2012-segwit.mediawiki#compact-fraud-proof-for-spv-nodes

I would be interested to hear your opinion on this.

Based on my understanding, the information to enable the fraud proofs is contained in Merkle trees, the root of which has to be included in blocks and validated by miners. Then any node could produce a merkle-chain leading to information proving violation of consensus rules, or showing that the merkle tree does not contain the required information (which would itself be a violation of consensus rules). Interestingly, the Merkle-tree information does not need to be communicated between nodes, as they can all generate it locally if they have a the full blockchain.

Anyway, getting back to Segregated Witness, it seems like their plan is to allow this validation to be soft-forked in at some point in the future.

My question is: Why does the provision of compact fraud proofs have anything to do with Segregated Witness? It seems to me that the fraud proof Merkle-tree validation could easily be soft-forked into the current block structure. Since the merkle trees can be generated locally by each node, the only additional information that needs to be included in block transmission is the root hash of the merkle trees. I don't see why this couldn't just be stuck into the current blocks somewhere without having anything to do with SW. Is it just that the data structure of Segregated Witness makes it easier to to build the merkle trees?
 

Justus Ranvier

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
875
3,746
I would be interested to hear your opinion on this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_&_switch

My question is: Why does the provision of compact fraud proofs have anything to do with Segregated Witness? It seems to me that the fraud proof Merkle-tree validation could easily be soft-forked into the current block structure. Since the merkle trees can be generated locally by each node, the only additional information that needs to be included in block transmission is the root hash of the merkle trees. I don't see why this couldn't just be stuck into the current blocks somewhere without having anything to do with SW. Is it just that the data structure of Segregated Witness makes it easier to to build the merkle trees?
Fraud proofs absolutely could be implemented without SW.

I sketched out a method for doing so here:

https://gist.github.com/justusranvier/451616fa4697b5f25f60
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
@Mengerian

it probably has something to do with tx malleability. fraud proofs most likely require strict determinism, which isn't the case in the current state of affairs, unfortunately.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
@Justus Ranvier

aren't fraud proofs designed to help SPV wallets verify the reliability of the headers and Merkle roots fed to them by full nodes on the fly within the 10min interval block formations? wouldn't SW fraud proofs help the current situation whereby those tx's the SPV wallet is attempting to verify can be malleated?
[doublepost=1451596117][/doublepost]oh my, nice dive into the close to end the year:

 

Justus Ranvier

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
875
3,746
[aren't fraud proofs designed to help SPV wallets verify the reliability of the headers and Merkle roots fed to them by full nodes on the fly within the 10min interval block formations? wouldn't SW fraud proofs help the current situation whereby those tx's the SPV wallet is attempting to verify can be malleated?
I guess there might be some value in doing that.

What's really critical, though, is having a way for honest nodes to tell SPV wallets to ignore the chain that has the highest proof of work, because that chain includes an invalid block.

The hard part of doing that is creating a means to efficiently prove that a transaction spends an input that either doesn't exist, or has already been spent, where "efficiently" means "the block headers are the only external input needed to validate the proof".

Until we have those types of fraud proofs, SPV wallets are a security vulnerability.
 
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Aquent

Active Member
Aug 19, 2015
252
667
Happy new year guys, soonish, I suppose. I just wanted to share/throw our some ideas here and as always fully welcome all comments/opinions/feedback.

It seems to me that Bitcoin Unlimited is capturing imaginations. It is this new, utterly common sense thing, which addresses all criticisms. The answer really to this hole thing. The small blockers are dumfunded, but far more importantly than that, they actually appreciate it. They are not stating so right now. They are hesitating, but that hesitation itself shows us they have no criticism to make and, I think, more deeply, shows they actually agree with the approach that BU takes.

I think we have checkmated the argument by so clearly, so common sensly, so almost childlishly simply (now with hindsight I suppose) cutting through all the obfuscation and arguments. They have not even tried to attack the developers because the bottom up approach argument is so disarming and the humbleness from myself at least leaves little to say. Yes, we need more developers, if you like the idea come join us, lets do this... there is little they can say.

My approach has somewhat developed while engaging the trenches and I have moved towards actively distancing BU from XT. There are some lost drones who seem to very ineffectively taint BU with XT and dismiss it out of hand as just an XT thing. We were of course right to try and keep BU in the XT camp when designing this thing, but XT is dead in the water right now I think and a liability. I personally, when trying to explain BU, paint both core and XT as a centralised thing... and utterly different from BU.

Now, I'm just throwing things here and hopefully my frail humane nature which gives me emotions does not make me feel hurt if I am mistaken and I hope others so take it too as mere opinion, but it seems to me that certain god complexes have developed especially between the core committers. Jeff acknowledged as much, but he seems to have limited it to the blocksize issue, rather than what seems to me to be a more ingraned division between perceivebly god like core comitters and mere mortals.

Sure, they probably busy, but, some of them more than others, fail to engage with us, and seem more busy with trying to be celebrities, than actually getting things done. Perhaps we are now testing it and (in my brutally honest fashion), in hindsight I was perhaps jumping the gun, but I suppose the character of @theZerg had to be tested (fully unintentionally) and I feel now so much better to have other developers be equal in contribution, not superior (of course where they right etc). But humble is my point.

And more than that. We have a unique and killer approach here. While core runs as a dictatorship, while these developers have deluded themselves into god complexes, we have done the second common sense thing and by so doing giving this whole project the utmost wisdom that derives from any bottom up approach. We operate based on a constitutional democracy approach.

There is no room for egos here. Sure, respect to all, but I do not think we should in any way tolerate sharp remarks which aim to subdue, silly posturing which adds no content, snark cheap remarks which do not contribute, pr nonsense of no value, etc. Core became what it did because they fully lost touch and isolated themselves then deluded themselves into thinking they gods as is natural when contact with the users is cut of.

This is already becoming too long and it is fully a draft I have not re-red it etc, but I wanted to conclude by saying that in my opinion Desktop Linux failed for one and one reason alone. It never listened to the users. While microsoft for example makes it easy to make your printer restart printing if you have run out of pages or ink once pages or ink is added, desktop linux makes it a nightmare. While microsoft seems to allow the mouse to easily move around in linux for some reason it can be utter annoyance. There are a million of other little annoyances as the above. All utterly easily fixable, but because the devs isolated themselves and so created further and further group think thus lossing touch, very simple things that helped the user were not done.

Bitcoin risked the same before all this started. I am glad there was a catalist to review our path and I am deeply thankful our brainstorming here, our energy, our clear and common sense thinking, was able to see right through the issues, and create a technical solution, but also a social solution, in the way of our philosophy and approach, in the way of our insistence that developers become equal to us.

BU is not just the blocksize thing. Equally insightfully BU has the constitutional democracy thing where we the users keep the developers accountable and responsive to our requests, so keeping them in check and so bringing them down from their ivory towers and god complexes.

P.S. draft all this - no review - so pls be gentle

A very happy new year to you all. History may see 2015 as the year when bitcoin's future was determined and I must say I am very impressed with our decisive holistic response and very optimistic about the new year.