Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Norway

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Sep 29, 2015
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i just looked over the Handcash site having never used it, and i can see why they think using one's cell number as a 2nd factor and splitting the key in the name of decentralization might be desirable for security reasons.
Yes. A very good thing with Handcash' key management is that you don't have to worry too much if someone finds your seed. Let's say you keep your seed in a fireproof safe. And your wife keep her jewellery in the same safe. Suddenly, divorce happens o_O
You'll be safe with Handcash as your bitter wife doesn't have access to your phone.
(Or you keep it in a drawer, and your kids or a burglar finds your seed.)

Handcash is aiming for mainstream people taking care of their seeds.
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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will they reveal their half of the secret?
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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Handcash would be better if they used Authy/Aegis as the 2nd factor and moved the whole encrypted key to your phone.
[doublepost=1577908382,1577907343][/doublepost]As one of the biggest bitcoin miners on the planet, I understand the importance of additional revenue streams required to make that side of my business sustainable long term. That means unlimited block size caps and lots of microtransactions paid for by micropayments. Bitcoin miners will move to the chain that has the most revenue potential for their proof of work. Bitcoin SV is the only chain in town.

https://coingeek.com/calvin-ayre-2020-is-bitcoins-year-of-enterprise-adoption-kick-ass-utility/
 
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AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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the original SPV wallet (Mycelium) could do this too,
Not so. With Mycelium you have always had access to your private keys and the 12-word seed could be restored in any wallet, so they have never had the ability to freeze your funds. Not so with HandCash. Mycelium servers could track your wallet addresses so there was a privacy concern however they admitted that and advised you acted accordingly although they said they did not track the data.

Handcash is aiming for mainstream people taking care of their seeds.
While this is one of the biggest problems I see with regards to bitcoin adoption HandCash is a questionable solution.

When asked why I wouldn't recommend HandCash I mentioned it was because one can't get acsess to one's keys or restore the wallet with another provider. I was told:

"We don’t believe those are issues for regular people. This is just money."
This wallet cant sign addresses like a letter of credit to prove you have the money, It cant sweep cold storage, and it has no features that could be used to increase privacy so accessing your keys to get those features can be important. Especially if they shut down and stop supporting the wallet.


If you are not paying for a product, you are the product.


All companies in this space should be wanting to earn Bitcoin and grow the value of bitcoin.

Privacy data is valuable and so can locking people out of their wallets be valuable. The best way to ensure this is not abused is not to enable the tools that do it.
 
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lunar

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Aug 28, 2015
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Happy new year one and all.

Nice to see we're bringing in the new year with some good wallet discussion/
You may have missed these two posts from ElectrumSV.

https://medium.com/@roger.taylor/electrumsv-and-seed-based-wallet-restoration-9b0e7876e0a9

The issue he's having is that the 12 words restore, is a BTCore design hangover and doesn't scale well. They will still support it, iirc; but if you can see where this is going, the 12 words function just doesn't cut it.

"With the Genesis upgrade, Bitcoin SV is no longer broken like Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin Cash are. People will be able to write smart contracts, and with the removal of the standard transaction rules, no longer be limited to P2PK, P2PKH, P2SH and bare multi-signature transactions. There will be no way to say for this sequence of keys these are the transactions I am looking for on the blockchain. It will be impossible for seed based restoration to work the way it currently does. It will simply fail to find your wallet activity.

Seed based restoration is broken. It was always broken, and the only way it can ever be fixed is if it does not work the way it currently does. ElectrumSV may in the longer term implement the new seed based restoration that does not scan keys or addresses, but it involves a lot of work and it may not even be possible."


follow up read here
https://medium.com/@roger.taylor/the-cost-of-seed-based-wallet-recovery-fe4dda1f0c45
 

AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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It will be impossible for seed based restoration to work the way it currently does. It will simply fail to find your wallet activity.
This is all good and well but if the solution is one where access to your money is dependant on a 3rd party like HandCash then it's a non-starter, moreover it's a regression from what we have now.

If locking in your keys under the control of a private 3rd party can prevent you from signing with them it's a no go.

Seed based restoration is broken.
It's not all that broken, and it has problems but the seed words are after all just an entropy path to create a private key and the related BIP are there as a method to generate related keys in a predetermined way.
 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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Not so. With Mycelium you have always had access to your private keys and the 12-word seed could be restored in any wallet, so they have never had the ability to freeze your funds.
well, that's why I said this :

>tbf, the original SPV wallet (Mycelium) could do this too, minus the phone number and "split key".

is Mycelium even still around?
[doublepost=1577942692][/doublepost]
Happy new year one and all.

Nice to see we're bringing in the new year with some good wallet discussion/
You may have missed these two posts from ElectrumSV.

https://medium.com/@roger.taylor/electrumsv-and-seed-based-wallet-restoration-9b0e7876e0a9

The issue he's having is that the 12 words restore, is a BTCore design hangover and doesn't scale well. They will still support it, iirc; but if you can see where this is going, the 12 words function just doesn't cut it.

"With the Genesis upgrade, Bitcoin SV is no longer broken like Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin Cash are. People will be able to write smart contracts, and with the removal of the standard transaction rules, no longer be limited to P2PK, P2PKH, P2SH and bare multi-signature transactions. There will be no way to say for this sequence of keys these are the transactions I am looking for on the blockchain. It will be impossible for seed based restoration to work the way it currently does. It will simply fail to find your wallet activity.

Seed based restoration is broken. It was always broken, and the only way it can ever be fixed is if it does not work the way it currently does. ElectrumSV may in the longer term implement the new seed based restoration that does not scan keys or addresses, but it involves a lot of work and it may not even be possible."


follow up read here
https://medium.com/@roger.taylor/the-cost-of-seed-based-wallet-recovery-fe4dda1f0c45
I'm concerned about that approach. forcing everyone to migrate to a new wallet scheme is going to be a problem.
 
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cbeast

Active Member
Sep 15, 2015
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If the seed-based system was broken, then perhaps the protocol itself is broken. Nobody has offered a way for BitCoin to scale where you can create many transactions per day without re-using addresses and still be able to securely store and backup the wallet. It seems that secure storage and scalability are inversely related.
 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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if you weren't around back when we were having to do routine wallet.dat file backups, it'd be pretty hard to relate to why that wasn't working too well .
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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this is the type of illogical argument i've come to lol at from a supposedly intelligent guy. like why would some random guy lie to @AdrianX way back in japan about being the real @Bagatell? i mean, why? :rolleyes::

I don't doubt he's an actual person, but did you get a signature from him in person at that occasion?

Or how else would you know that the person claiming to be @Bagatell in front you, was Bagatell?
the good news is that @imaginary_username is a real person who, while being toxic, argues with passion and devs to back his beliefs (unlike some others who inexplicably lose interest):

The best place to meet BU members in person are conferences and similar events. Most recently I met @imaginary_username at Townsville. Such events certainly reduce the number of NPIMs.
 
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AdrianX

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There are inherent scaling issues when it comes to managing wallets, and Craig is doing a great job of getting people to think about them. Craig is also doing a very bad job of helping people understand the costs, and benefits and many seem to try and implement what they think he is talking about. The article does a great job of opening with that premise.
I can say most wallets on BSV are degrading the user experience. A while ago I moved coins from BTC addresses that had hundreds of inputs using electrum BTC although slow, I was able to identify them all. More recently, I tried to move coins for an SV user who had unspent BCH and BSV on the same address, they had over 14,000 inputs to one address. (needless to say BSV developers need to improve how they use addresses.) Electron Cash worked no problem but Electrum SV refused to check all the inputs from the blockchain hence it would not show a balance.

One can't design a wallet for users who don't have a need for bitcoin. One can design a wallet for users who do currently have a need for bitcoin. Most wallet providers don't know who their customers are yet. The services that will encourage bitcoin adoption are still in development and don't have users, evidently, wallet developers are optimizing the wrong things.

Bitcoin adoption is dependant on fulfiling an identified needs that can't be fulfiled any other way. Users will find a way to get bitcoin and entrepreneurs will find a way to make it Win-Win for all. What many SV wallet providers seem to be doing is alienating the existing bitcoin users and design for non-existing users. HandCash Dinging Dongs is an exsample. It's like a social Craig cult network, not a value exchange network.


The problem.

Miners are not obligated to send blockchain data to whoever requests it. They may be running pruned nodes or in the business of providing data for a fee. So at scale, if miners charge to access blockchain data, how do you know if you have a valid UTXO on an address you control if you just want to check the balance.

I can tell you how not to do it - hide addresses (aka payment) data from the users.

I can also tell you this is not a problem it's a business opportunity and I think it's easy to solve in a way that does not impeded adoption.

Electrum SV is proposing we're doing it wrong by putting our trust in the network, the source of truth, by using the network's UTXO set to checked again out addresses as a poor substitute for keeping track of our own UTXOs. :confused:


If you’re making one payment at a time and not quickly enough to spend more coins before your wallet recovers from it’s forgetting the spend it just made, then this works kind of neatly. But it’s a very poor substitute for just keeping the transaction and building on that.
Electrum SV also makes this flawed assumption confusing it with immutable of fact
It keeps on enumerating addresses until it finds 20 consecutive addresses which have not been used in any transactions. At that point it considers the wallet fully restored.
This is a design problem, not a Seed-based restoration problem.

There is no way to guarantee a wallet’s contents can be correctly or safely restored through just the seed words.
Yes, there is. BIP 32, 39, 44, and others provide a way to guarantee this. What not guaranteed is when restoring a wallet, you will check each used address against the networks UTXO this is a wallet design problem.


If you’re making one payment at a time and not quickly enough to spend more coins before your wallet recovers from it’s forgetting the spend it just made, then this works kind of neatly. But it’s a very poor substitute for just keeping the transaction and building on that.
Service providers should make using bitcoin invisible, hence you won't need to know you are using addresses or bitcoin, you just use it and it works, but if you want accountability you need to give access to the addresses. Hiding them from users just makes the system less transparent and opens up fraud vectors.

Also, WTF - calling payment to an address you control that was not solicited through their API or a quantified KYC partner "pedo coins" is asinine. Electrum already lets one ignore unsolicited dust, which is great but, I have to question why do it for all valid transactions that are unsolicited. I have no idea.

Moving forward ElectrumSV will never reuse an address and will quarantine all unsolicited funds — or pedo coins as I call them.
Oh Boy. There are many kids in this space not able to think through a design. The quote below struck me, particularly thinking the Genesis upgrade changes how keys are generated is concerning, it's a wallet design problem not a result of a protocol upgrade.
It will be impossible for seed-based restoration to work the way it currently does. It will simply fail to find your wallet activity.
 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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>but Electrum SV refused to check all the inputs from the blockchain hence it would not show a balance.

that's nuts. how does that happen?

>Electrum SV is proposing we're doing it wrong by putting our trust in the network, the source of truth, by using the network's UTXO set to checked again out addresses as a poor substitute for keeping track of our own UTXOs. :confused:

yep, that's ridiculous. the whole point of a blockchain is as an immutable source of truth.

>This is a design problem, not a Seed-based restoration problem.

agree. just increase the gap limit if you have to. don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

>Also, WTF - calling payment to an address you control that was not solicited through their API or a quantified KYC partner "pedo coins" is asinine. Electrum already lets one ignore unsolicited dust, which is great but, I have to question why do it for all valid transactions that are unsolicited. I have no idea.

I've been concerned about RT for a while now. that is childish. yeah, electrum allows you to just freeze the dust.
 
>but Electrum SV refused to check all the inputs from the blockchain hence it would not show a balance.

that's nuts. how does that happen?

>Electrum SV is proposing we're doing it wrong by putting our trust in the network, the source of truth, by using the network's UTXO set to checked again out addresses as a poor substitute for keeping track of our own UTXOs. :confused:

yep, that's ridiculous. the whole point of a blockchain is as an immutable source of truth.

>This is a design problem, not a Seed-based restoration problem.

agree. just increase the gap limit if you have to. don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

>Also, WTF - calling payment to an address you control that was not solicited through their API or a quantified KYC partner "pedo coins" is asinine. Electrum already lets one ignore unsolicited dust, which is great but, I have to question why do it for all valid transactions that are unsolicited. I have no idea.

I've been concerned about RT for a while now. that is childish. yeah, electrum allows you to just freeze the dust.
Yes, the decisions of some wallet developers are terrible. If wallet backup or import will be impossible in bsv without relying on an exclusive third party api or going through kyc I will be out.

But it seems many are willing to keep it.
 

Norway

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Sep 29, 2015
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I think e-money on Tokenized will be more important for payments the next years because Bitcoin is too volatile even for micropayments.

And they have been very clear on the backup issue. Everything can be recovered with your seed, as opposed to Electrum SV. One seed for all your E-money and payment history with encrypted receipts, your Amleh gold tokens, your company shares, your buss tickets, your buss ticket history, your car rental, your votes etc etc etc.

I think the main reason Electrum SV is thinking about constant off-chain backups of your wallet is simply lack of resources and uncertainty about how this Metanet will be, combined with uncertainty about how threshold signature schemes should be tracked.
 

Manfred

Member
Feb 1, 2019
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What happens with BSV paper wallets after feb 4, 2020 ?
We talk about biblical prophecies very soon the way it develops.