Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

shilch

Member
Mar 28, 2019
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for the sake of storage and computation inefficiency
It sounds inefficient but it really isn't. Miners can offer script templates at reduced costs that they have optimised for. The script templates don't break existing software and infrastructure but still allow for efficiency.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
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Do you mean BUIP110?
It is here.
I think so. I think I got a little confused because you said it was not covered under that. It's still not really clear if it is or not to be honest.
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The "somehow" is the issue, the way bitcoin incentivises propagation seems to be the only way to do this. Bitcoin is literally the solution to a lot of issues in p2p networks related to incentives - if it's allowed to scale.
It seems like this requires a two-pronged attack. It needs propagation, perhaps based on the blockchain model but then storage needs to be incentivized too, probably on an ongoing basis.

Propagation could be dispensed with if the document originator handles that. They already have the incentive, of course. And the issue with incentivizing storage is if you fail to meet a sufficient incentive and everyone drops your document. With something like AWS, the incentives and agreements are pretty clear. I guess the document storers would have to have a way to communicate their requirements or some kind of auction could occur.

But again, I'm not seeing a strong business use for this over existing alternatives. Though I'm not trying to discourage anyone if they do.
 
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rocks

Active Member
Sep 24, 2015
586
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As I said, I encourage you to do it on BSV, for the sake of storage and computation inefficiency.

What's the holdup?
The holdup is it is less efficient to require all network participants to upgrade their applications to support new opcodes for any reason, let alone for something that can already be done with existing opcodes.

Adding a new opcode does not only involve users updating their client sw version. Bitcoin at scale will have thousands/millions of custom applications operating on the blockchain, you are saying they all need to go through a development and qualification process.

That is time consuming, costly and introduces risk. These inefficiencies greatly outweigh the negligibly larger transaction packet on BSV.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
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Obviously rate of protocol change will slow down over time. I don't even see anyone arguing against that, which is why the argument appears to me as a strawman.
you are saying they all need to go through a development and qualification process
For those that wish to be compatible with the protocol, obviously yes.

It's called software re-use. Custom applications should use well verified libraries to avoid re-inventing the wheel. Should be no problem, there will be lots of those libraries available on BCH. The more use, the more value of the network, the more lucrative it becomes to maintain the software.
That is time consuming, costly and introduces risk.
No risk, no reward.
Re: costliness and effort -- I remember someone saying "amateur hour is over".
These inefficiencies greatly outweigh the negligibly larger transaction packet on BSV.
A protocol that is efficient at all levels will outcompete the ones that aren't.
 
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79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
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storage needs to be incentivized too, probably on an ongoing basis. [...] the issue with incentivizing storage is if you fail to meet a sufficient incentive and everyone drops your document. With something like AWS, the incentives and agreements are pretty clear. I guess the document storers would have to have a way to communicate their requirements or some kind of auction could occur.
at the beginning you pay a fee and some miner picks up your data-heavy transaction. what's to guarantee embedded data will be available in perpetuity? it will be someone's business to charge for queries of the blockchain, this may be sufficient incentive for that business to maintain a copy of its entirety. but to guarantee data integrity, the business might also have to pay other nodes with the full history to corroborate the results. these other nodes might be keeping the full history for a number of reasons besides the present business case.
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
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No, just hella inefficient.

But I encourage you to do it on BSV, for the sake of storage and computation inefficiency.

p.s. spare me talk about optimization techniques using hardware and software that doesn't exist.
Inefficient, you say. How would you implement the service on the BSV chain?
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
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@freetrader
You're avoiding the issue. You said it would be inefficient to build the Last Will service on BSV.

I guess it's just you who don't have an idea of how it could be done.

It's just a timer with a dead man's switch. You don't need OP_CHECKDATASIG to script this simple task, Einstein.

All you need, is the source of a hash to trigger the switch. Much more efficient than OP_CHECKDATASIG in any aspect.
 
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solex

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 22, 2015
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Is it within the power of the BU officers to donate BU funds to external projects without a vote by its members?
In this case, due to the relatively small amount, it was considered discretionary within existing approved development funding Devpool2.
Improved confidentiality has long been a goal for Bitcoin, especially as it is falling behind in this respect compared to newer coins such as Zcash and Monero.
This is open source software which is available to BSV and BTC, as well as BCH. The market will pass judgment long-term on coins which embrace or eschew such functionality.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
it will be someone's business to charge for queries of the blockchain,
Right. So they're storing your data, for which there's no guarantee that they'll ever receive a fee and for your data which they may receive a fee, they are probably storing 1000 times that in data that no one will ever access (and probably even more that people will access but not from *them*). So they have cover costs for that which means you're going to be paying for that one way or another. Meanwhile, Amazon will stick your documents on an SSD and keep a couple of redundant copies around for next to nothing.

Edit: And they may not even be storing your data but have to go to someone else to get it? Does this seem reasonable?
 
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79b79aa8

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Sep 22, 2015
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i can see many different possibilities, some of which may be viable, some not. i do not pretend to have a crystal ball. long term, whatever is not profitable, disappears. if miners lose money by picking up certain txs, they won't pick them up. or they might, yet eventually prune them if they are not paying the rent. this means that the assumption that all data inscribed in the blockchain is securitized perpetually has to be relaxed to: data it is securitized so long as it is profitable to do so (as actually has always been the case). as you suggest, this affects possible uses cases, but at the same time it does not provide an argument against data heavy transactions per se. it's too early to tell.
 
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torusJKL

Active Member
Nov 30, 2016
497
1,156
In this case, due to the relatively small amount, it was considered discretionary within existing approved development funding Devpool2.
Improved confidentiality has long been a goal for Bitcoin, especially as it is falling behind in this respect compared to newer coins such as Zcash and Monero.
This is open source software which is available to BSV and BTC, as well as BCH. The market will pass judgment long-term on coins which embrace or eschew such functionality.
Thanks @Peter R and @solex for you responses.

I want to make clear that I'm not against CashShuffle and I'm not against rewarding devs for good work.

But I believe that paying an external project that does not enhance BUs functionality is not covered by BUIP110.

Summary of Approved Projects

1. Passed BUIPs automatically qualify.
2. General maintenance, housekeeping, refactoring, QA and other discretionary work also qualify.
Besides the "other discretionary work" part the two points define work done for BU code or passed by a BUIP.
The use of "other discretionary work" was interpreted by me as work done on BU but I understand that it is ambiguous.
Something that should be written less ambiguous in future BUIPs.

Impact

Bitcoin Unlimited's software has long been recognized as pushing the boundaries of on-chain scaling. The overall quality of BU development is expected to be improved by this initiative, also resulting in an accelerated rate of improvement, especially as the next bull market is likely to see an influx of users who are frustrated by the lack of BTC scalability.
This part defines the impact of the Devpool work.
How did the donation to CashShuffle improve the development of the BU software?

Based on this last part I believe that "other discretionary work" can't be an external project that does not help the BU software directly.

Adding CashShuffle to the BU client for example would have been covered by the BUIP.
 
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Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
1,439
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I wouldn't develop for BSV, period.
:cry::cry::cry:
Because other interests?
[doublepost=1555049805][/doublepost]
In this case, due to the relatively small amount, it was considered discretionary within existing approved development funding Devpool2.
Improved confidentiality has long been a goal for Bitcoin, especially as it is falling behind in this respect compared to newer coins such as Zcash and Monero.
This is open source software which is available to BSV and BTC, as well as BCH. The market will pass judgment long-term on coins which embrace or eschew such functionality.
Will anonymous payment methods be banned on that market? Aren't ZCash and Monero the first projects that will be banned? Wouldn't it be better to wait with such functionality until Bitcoin is too big to fail? Isn't TPTB happy to get a reason to ban Bitcoin too? Did it sponsor that project too? Will miners (be able to) ban shuffled transactions?
 
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Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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The use of "other discretionary work" was interpreted by me as work done on BU but I understand that it is ambiguous.
"Work" to me implies that BU has requested something (be it a wallet improvement, logo design or cleaning the BU bathrooms) be done for pay. I'm not sure that a donation falls within that. Unless that was just a misnomer. Not that I'm necessarily against such donations per se but I agree that it appears to fall between the cracks.
 

lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
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@freetrader PeterMcC V's CSW, got my popcorn ready. Phoenix Rising.

https://medium.com/@craig_10243/the-genesis-of-genesis-5774b2fb9bc9

Edit, one more for the lols

https://medium.com/@craig_10243/evidence-and-law-f8f10001efa5

"Bitcoin was birthed using a credit card payment. The records of that payment are required to be kept by the banking system for 25 years. It hasn’t been that long. More importantly, I claimed the expenses on my tax in the 2008/2009 tax year."

"The source of the funds that went to pay for the bitcoin.org domain registration on annonymousspeech.com derived from my credit card. More importantly, those records remain current and valid."
 
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