Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
4,290
What guarantee does BSV offer you that they will "lock down the protocol", even if that makes any sense?
Respectfully, you're missing the point There are no promises anyone can make that can be trusted, that's the whole point of Bitcoin. Only PoW matters. Show me anyone else who is working harder on, or spending hundreds of millions to protect Bitcoins original economic incentives, and i'll start listening intently to what they say. BSV is the only one left that still has the original design.
 

majamalu

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
144
775
As far as I am concerned no chain has make any progress on being used so nothing is being lost from the forks, the only purpose Bitcoin has found so far is speculation, which isn't a sustainable use case on it's own.
Wide distribution is paramount, and very difficult to achieve. Many people acquired bitcoins a long time ago because they understood its potential as p2p electronic cash, and they still hold them. The fact that they are not using them now doesn't mean they will never use them.
 

sken

New Member
Nov 22, 2017
24
20
Respectfully, you're missing the point There are no promises anyone can make that can be trusted, that's the whole point of Bitcoin. Only PoW matters. Show me anyone else who is working harder on, or spending hundreds of millions to protect Bitcoins original economic incentives, and i'll start listening intently to what they say. BSV is the only one left that still has the original design.
remind me again what chain has more pow, BCH or BSV?

in b4 muh excuses. i thought:

Only PoW matters.
 

majamalu

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
144
775
Let's do a thought experiment. Imagine that the Blockstream boys never existed, and that Gavin continued to lead Core. In 2014, the blocksize limit is eliminated, or increased considerably, or in some way put eternaly above the capacity needed to avoid congestion. Nobody complains, nobody fights over that, and Bitcoin keeps growing at a good pace. Bear with me. In 2018, Gavin falls in love with CTOR and announces its implementation for the next upgrade. Discussions ensue, but nobody manages to dissuade him. Would you consider this a good reason to launch a contentious fork backed by a billionaire who threatens to paralyze the rival chain and sue everyone that doesn't agree with him?
 

rocks

Active Member
Sep 24, 2015
586
2,284
If Gavin gave other participants 2+ years notice of the change and made it optional by allowing clients to request which order to use for transmission purposes, yes it would be fine.

If he sprung it up with short notice and made it mandatory breaking all other existing clients, then no it would *not* be fine and a fork would be likely.
 
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Griffith

Active Member
Jun 5, 2017
188
157
you gotta ask yourself, why would u/ftrader suddenly resurface after all these years onto r/btc to help spearhead the BUIP's written by @Griffith which called for a total BU membership reset that ostracizes non-devs? are you fricking kidding me? that's crazy stuff. saboteur-like.

and now he's talking like a Core supporter; "muh full node" and "BU devs only".
unsure how kicking everyone except officers is "bu devs only", you arent a member so it wouldnt have concerned you anyway, and the buip has been rewritten since then.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
unsure how kicking everyone except officers is "bu devs only", you arent a member so it wouldnt have concerned you anyway, and the buip has been rewritten since then.
anything so grossly unfair always concerns me.
 
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Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
Core's strategy will not work again, but you have been so traumatized by past battles that you are fighting an enemy that doesn't exist today, while embracing your true enemy. What guarantee does BSV offer you that they will "lock down the protocol", even if that makes any sense?
Satoshi's fork design is the guarantee that you can always maintain a chain where the core design doesn't change.

Craig's word?
Satoshi's fork design. The core design is set in stone. But you are free to march in fours with those who forked off to a non-bitcoin pseudo-PoW chain. With such friends you don't need enemies anymore.
[doublepost=1553934277][/doublepost]
The only pussy here is yourself for not leaving BU.
Idiot.
[doublepost=1553934478][/doublepost]
remind me again what chain has more pow, BCH or BSV?

in b4 muh excuses. i thought:
BTC. But not valid.
 

Otaci

Member
Jul 26, 2017
74
384
Now, that is quite clearly out of date but that reads to me that transactions are added into blocks in fee order, not any kind of chronological order (except for dependent transactions, of course). Is the site wrong? (It wouldn't be the first time).
That is not a consensus rule. It is design decision made by the developers of the software implementation. It is irrelevant.
 

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
If Facebook told me anything, people who show their faces are not any better than anonymous people on both average and median. You're a living proof of that.
That's not an argument against @Norway's sybil argument. You obviously can't compete anymore here with your opinions.

All the anonymous pseudo-anarchists are proud to agitate anonymously and believe that this sign of anthropogenic decadence has something to do with anarchy. Neither communities nor societies can survive with anonymous agitators.
[doublepost=1553935955][/doublepost]

Silence is the loudest cry ...
 
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I'm surprised to hear you say this. I interpreted this post as "the split was stupid and it would have been better to have stuck together." How to you see @majamalu's post as anti-BSV? To me it was a call for unity. ABC is just as guilty as BSV of precipitating the split.
Yes, he second part of the post was better. But it opened with the usual people slander against bsv and putting the fault of the split to it.

As if we needed more people telling us how bad csw and CA are. I hear this, I hear the bad quotes of them (Africa and so on) all day, but when I go deeper, reading some of csw's medium posts or comments in slack, it's another picture, which is widely ignored for convenience.

Like your medium post. It was a good starter and nicely put, but unfortunately you couldn't resist to make a case against bsv - like the current attackers demand from bu.
[doublepost=1553937795,1553937128][/doublepost]
Maybe that wouldn't bother you so much if it wasn't true.



Craig would have found any other excuse. You think it is possible to appease him because you have chosen not to pay attention to his words. IMO, it's too high a price to pay just to lower your anxiety levels in the short term.
[doublepost=1553916504][/doublepost]

Thank you! Will do.
[doublepost=1553917485,1553916438][/doublepost]

Core's strategy will not work again, but you have been so traumatized by past battles that you are fighting an enemy that doesn't exist today, while embracing your true enemy. What guarantee does BSV offer you that they will "lock down the protocol", even if that makes any sense? Craig's word?
Ah ... I had this often.

'bsv caused the fork'
- technically ABC created the spli
'doesn't matter, bsv would have split anyway'

There is a huge difference between both sentences. Being aware of the second makes the first a lie.

Also, you can't legitimize bad action with something another party has not done but you assume they would.

And didn't nchain ask for more time and for miner voting? How is this compatible with your assumption what they had done anyway?
 

shilch

Member
Mar 28, 2019
54
216
Now, that is quite clearly out of date but that reads to me that transactions are added into blocks in fee order, not any kind of chronological order (except for dependent transactions, of course). Is the site wrong? (It wouldn't be the first time).
That assumes limited block size.

In the future, miners can agree to orphan any blocks where the order is a total mess from what they personally saw. This is only possible with TTOR.

They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism.
 

Griffith

Active Member
Jun 5, 2017
188
157
maybe I should have said the idea of doing a total membership reset to devs only is "preposterous". is that better?
it wasnt reset to only devs. it was to remove it from everyone that was not an officer. the other suggestion was to attempt to quantify the number and quality contributions, devs were used an example but it was quickly dismissed as it is hard to quantify something that is immaterial and a lot of stuff like helping others would be under the category of immaterial.

this is going to be the last post i make to you on the subject because in this scenario your opinion does not matter (not a member)
 
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freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
In the future, miners can agree to orphan any blocks where the order is a total mess from what they personally saw. This is only possible with TTOR.
"Can agree" implies they would be able to agree on a specification on something as vague as "a total mess from what they personally saw".

This reminds me of the "Coingeek pledge" to orphan fraudulent (double) spends with no clear spec.
 
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shilch

Member
Mar 28, 2019
54
216
Yes, one would have to come up with an algorithm (or every miner on its own), i.e. a Levenshtein for transaction order in blocks.
 
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Sorry for spamming. Once again, this time on a specific quote from you

Craig would have found any other excuse. You think it is possible to appease him because you have chosen not to pay attention to his words.
and @Peter R

You are impressed by technobabble, a wheelbarrow full of degrees, and lawsuits against open-source bitcoin developers.
It's obvious what you mean with this: Everybody who gives a tiny shit on CSW should leave BU. As there are several members, including Norway and me, who give a lot of shit, I'm worried by this.

To be fair, you make another bullet point which could be seen as directed against ABC:

You believe the quantity of block space actually produced should be managed by a group of experts rather than the free market,*
Since ABC did over and over confirm they want to be the experts who dictate the blocksize - and essentially did this when BSV raised it to 128 MB - the quote could be understand as that people who support ABC or a limited blocksize, like jtoomim, should leave. But there is an astrix:

*I believe the limit — if one exists — should be maintained above the free-market equilibrium block size whenever feasible so as not to distort the free-market dynamics.
Which gives much room for groups of experts to dictate the blocksize, as long as it is above some height.

Anyway ... you are a human with your own opinions, and the best rights to have and voice them. I'm just disappointed that you side with ABC against BSV after ABC developers attacked and smeared BU in public. You give them exactly what they aggressively bully you to give.

What I wanted to talk about was this:

... because you have chosen not to pay attention to his words.
and

... technobabble ...
I payed attention to CSW since day 1. First I thought, might be a good Satoshi, but more likely a good swindler, with an amazing ability to express big blockers points. Later I become a bit more contrarian - you remember me cheering for cutting ties with nChain, after they collaborated with ABC to shut down op_group - and stayed there for some time, thinking "I made my duty, payed enough attention". Than I payed more attention, and I stopped seeing it so onesided.

So. No: I don't like BSV, because I forgot to pay enough attention to the words of CSW. The opposite is true: I like it because I actually payed attention.

@shilch might be able to tell a lot of stories. For example, he and someone else had a 500+-comment-thread on slack about the original nature of op_return, and how it could interact with other (lost) opcodes. Not that I understood much, but there have been a lot of "wow" and "lightbulb" moments. On several occasions CSW stepped in, made a short comment, which first caused confusion, than enthusiasm, because he hinted on something valuable. At least that's my impression of this thread.

On the same way CSW explained for month, that it is possible to transport files via the mempool by changing the transaction when receiving. It is a very long way to get how it works and which role several elements play (not ready here for my part), but most people agree that it works nicely.

@Peter R there are a lot of similar stories too, if you "pay attention" instead of having reached an opinion which allows you to stop paying attention. Both stories are logically incompatible with the public assessments of CSW's capabilities you made and still made.

One of my basic surviving strategies is that I allow myself to be wrong. I was wrong on the turnout of the "hashwar" and the "economic war" after the fork; I was wrong about the chance of a flippening to BCH, wrong about the success of SegWit2x and much more. I am very often wrong, and if I stop allowing myself to be, I only have the voice between stopping to say something or becoming intellectually dishonest.