Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

majamalu

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
144
775
At the helm of BSV we have a duo whose strategy has been based on lying, threatening, extorting, abusing patents and flirting with the state in order to get their way, among other attitudes more typical of a mafia than of an entity devoted to separation between money and state. In the absence of good ideas, the megalomaniac personality is usually inclined to impose bad ideas (hence their approval of the monopoly of force, positive law, "intellectual property", etc), and bad ideas, once put into practice, have the habit of causing bad consequences. I doubt that the Craig Wright and Calvin Ayre experiment will be the exception.

But the main problem of BSV is not the unscrupulousness or the ideological derailment of its leaders. In the germ of this project we can already find the most costly mistake an entrepreneur can make in Cryptoland: splitting up to start from scratch whenever a trivial difference of opinion arises.

For a fork to make sense and have potential, the dominant crypto-oligarchy must have made monumental mistakes, such as shooing hundreds of thousands of users and boasting about it. Otherwise, we will have a frivolous fork, that is to say a fork that the market considers unjustified, and so it will tend to widen the gap between the prices of the resulting coins until the loser remains in an irreversible vegetative state.

Someone could object that there is no objective method that allows us to determine if a particular fork is frivolous, except in retrospect, and therefore "Majamalu's law" actually have zero predictive value. Well, I will add the following to specify what I mean when I speak of a "frivolous fork": it is reasonable to assume that, in general, if you don't understand the reasons for the split, you are facing a frivolous fork, or maybe one that is motivated by inadmissible reasons. Otherwise, the fork may be necessary, if not indispensable.

There is no more conspicuous example of an indispensable fork than the one that gave rise to BCH on August 1, 2017. Anyone capable of tying their shoelaces is also able to understand that a $ 50 fee for a transaction that could be confirmed in the next 10 minutes or in the next two weeks, or never, is enough reason to justify a fork.

But if we already have a functional and scalable coin, there's no better way to delay its adoption and, consequently, to hinder the development of the network effect, than to divide us into ever smaller tribes clashing over increasingly insignificant issues. A cryptocurrency doesn't have to be perfect in order to keep gaining users; it does not have to be an imperturbable store of value right now, or a superplatform on which it is possible to build every conceivable application, nor can it be such things without first having a broad and solid userbase. It does have to continue to function normally, bothering as little as possible those who need it. That's all.

The day will come when all the applications that are languishing today due to lack of users, scattered in a thousand isolated protocols, in addition to all those that have not yet been conceived, will be implemented in the winning chain. Meanwhile, focusing on anything other than adoption motivated by the monetary qualities of BCH proves that we have not understood the crucial importance of the network effect.

The winning chain will simply be the most used chain. And the most used chain will be the most economical, efficient, reliable, predictable, friendly and, above all, the most respectful of the inherited infrastructure and the existing user base. It will also end up being, by virtue of the incentive system created by Satoshi Nakamoto, the safest chain.

Many bitcoiners have been seduced by one or another reductionist view of the problems faced by any pretender to the throne of universal money. They believe they have embraced an all-encompassing theory, when the truth is they just placed themselves at an extreme where they can comfortably rejoice, along with other members of their tribe, in the collective illusion that they already have all the answers, so they don't need to reflect on of their past decisions, or consider alternative solutions, or negotiate with "those outside." I hope there's a special place in hell for them.
 
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At the helm of BSV we have a duo whose strategy has been based on lying, threatening, extorting, abusing patents and flirting with the state in order to get their way, among other attitudes more typical of a mafia than of an entity devoted to separation between money and state. In the absence of good ideas, the megalomaniac personality is usually inclined to impose bad ideas (hence their approval of the monopoly of force, positive law, "intellectual property", etc), and bad ideas, once put into practice, have the habit of causing bad consequences. I doubt that the Craig Wright and Calvin Ayre experiment will be the exception.
Oh, look, really? Why do I hear this only 1000 times a week?

But the main problem of BSV is not the unscrupulousness or the ideological derailment of its leaders. In the germ of this project we can already find the most costly mistake an entrepreneur can make in Cryptoland: splitting up to start from scratch whenever a trivial difference of opinion arises.
Ok, the split was the main problem of BSV in your view. Many people think that the split was not caused by BSV, but by ABC. Does this make ABC as bad in your view?

But if we already have a functional and scalable coin, there's no better way to delay its adoption and, consequently, to hinder the development of the network effect, than to divide us into ever smaller tribes clashing over increasingly insignificant issues
Full agree. This was why I begged ABC proponents to delay CTOR. Not once, but often, and not only me, but many, including every single non-ABC-developer. Confronted with SV's fork program, ABC had the chance to stop / delay the fork, just by not implementing CTOR, giving the miners the chance to mine compatible blocks. But they did not do, and like many of them confirmed, they WANTED the split. It was no option for them to not activate the hard fork features, even when the price was the fork.

Again: Do this fact make ABC as worse as BSV for you, as this is what you call the main problem?

The winning chain will simply be the most used chain. And the most used chain will be the most economical, efficient, reliable, predictable, friendly and, above all, the most respectful of the inherited infrastructure and the existing user base. It will also end up being, by virtue of the incentive system created by Satoshi Nakamoto, the safest chain.
Agree. And I will support this chain, no matter if it was my favorite bitcoin variant or if I like or hate the leaders. And I want BU to do the same.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
At the helm of BSV we have a duo whose strategy has been based on lying, threatening, extorting, abusing patents and flirting with the state in order to get their way, among other attitudes more typical of a mafia than of an entity devoted to separation between money and state. In the absence of good ideas, the megalomaniac personality is usually inclined to impose bad ideas (hence their approval of the monopoly of force, positive law, "intellectual property", etc), and bad ideas, once put into practice, have the habit of causing bad consequences. I doubt that the Craig Wright and Calvin Ayre experiment will be the exception.

But the main problem of BSV is not the unscrupulousness or the ideological derailment of its leaders. In the germ of this project we can already find the most costly mistake an entrepreneur can make in Cryptoland: splitting up to start from scratch whenever a trivial difference of opinion arises.

For a fork to make sense and have potential, the dominant crypto-oligarchy must have made monumental mistakes, such as shooing hundreds of thousands of users and boasting about it. Otherwise, we will have a frivolous fork, that is to say a fork that the market considers unjustified, and so it will tend to widen the gap between the prices of the resulting coins until the loser remains in an irreversible vegetative state.

Someone could object that there is no objective method that allows us to determine if a particular fork is frivolous, except in retrospect, and therefore "Majamalu's law" actually have zero predictive value. Well, I will add the following to specify what I mean when I speak of a "frivolous fork": it is reasonable to assume that, in general, if you don't understand the reasons for the split, you are facing a frivolous fork, or maybe one that is motivated by inadmissible reasons. Otherwise, the fork may be necessary, if not indispensable.

There is no more conspicuous example of an indispensable fork than the one that gave rise to BCH on August 1, 2017. Anyone capable of tying their shoelaces is also able to understand that a $ 50 fee for a transaction that could be confirmed in the next 10 minutes or in the next two weeks, or never, is enough reason to justify a fork.

But if we already have a functional and scalable coin, there's no better way to delay its adoption and, consequently, to hinder the development of the network effect, than to divide us into ever smaller tribes clashing over increasingly insignificant issues. A cryptocurrency doesn't have to be perfect in order to keep gaining users; it does not have to be an imperturbable store of value right now, or a superplatform on which it is possible to build every conceivable application, nor can it be such things without first having a broad and solid userbase. It does have to continue to function normally, bothering as little as possible those who need it. That's all.

The day will come when all the applications that are languishing today for lack of users, scattered in a thousand isolated protocols, in addition to all those that have not yet been conceived, will be implemented in the winning chain. Meanwhile, focusing on anything other than adoption motivated by the monetary qualities of BCH proves that we have not understood the crucial importance of the network effect.

The winning chain will simply be the most used chain. And the most used chain will be the most economical, efficient, reliable, predictable, friendly and, above all, the most respectful of the inherited infrastructure and the existing user base. It will also end up being, by virtue of the incentive system created by Satoshi Nakamoto, the safest chain.

Many bitcoiners have been seduced by one or another reductionist view of the problems faced by any pretender to the throne of universal money. They believe they have embraced an all-encompassing theory, when the truth is they just placed themselves at an extreme where they can comfortably rejoice, along with other members of their tribe, in the collective illusion that they already have all the answers, so they don't need to reflect on of their past decisions, or consider alternative solutions, or negotiate with "those outside." I hope there's a special place in hell for them.
@majamalu, that is such a great post that stands on its own. Consider putting it on Honest.cash.
 
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satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
Looks as if Amaurys political purge is working and that he has won his little war inside BCH.. All critics left or are exhausted.

BCH-ABC has chosen to take the same path as Bitcoin core... Commenting on /r/btc feels like the blocksize-debate times on /r/bitcoin before the massive censorship.. Everything is there again. The history rewriting, the blatant lying, the "there is only one way" thinking, the developer-bootlicking.. And astonishing how fast the "BU == bad" spin was successful.

Really sad to see.

Amaury is a short-sighted psychopath as much as Greg Maxwell.. just without the intellectual competence.

And stop complaining about the people making this personal.. Amaury wanted it to be personal. BCH is as much Amaury as BSV is CSW.
 
@satoshis_sockpuppet

It started when everybody supported ABC because of dislike against CSW. When you dismiss the alternative a priori, you give up your choice, and the only option left has full control.

Wait until the "good" BU-members vote for purging the "malicious" BU members and pressure the BU devs to exclusively support ABC.
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
As an outsider I think that BU should stop the development of the client once and for all. The "decentralization" of development is a charade.

The funds of BU were much better spend to support fork-agnostic research projects.
 
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freetrader

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Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
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The "decentralization" of development is a charade.
Is it though?
Other client projects like BCHD are doing promising work too (e.g. UTXO commitments, Neutrino), how is BU going to do "fork-agnostic research" without actually developing a client?
This sounds like a pie in the sky academic direction.
 

79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
thank you @Norway @Richy_T @attila @rocks for your discussion of transaction ordering. you not only managed to keep it reasonably civil, but actually reached a common conclusion -- that it was ill-advised to fork in CTOR.

@majamalu, do you agree that change was forced by ABC? one might learn to live with it, but the deeper problem is that BCH is subject to such changes being imposed again, disrupting business, development and use. like BTC, it is at the mercy of developers with too much power. power corrupts. bad decisions result.
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
@freetrader

BU could develop stuff like e.g. xThin for existing clients like ABC, BSV.. Depending on the BUIP.

Research can also be done independent of 'real world code', for example simulations for different Avalanche proposals etc.
 

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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@satoshis_sockpuppet : I agree, there is lots that could be done that isn't academic and would greatly benefit other clients, and cryptocurrencies beside Bitcoin Cash.

For example, the pre-consensus work kicked off by the Subchains paper and already part implemented by @awemany.

Or, as you said, various Avalanche-based concepts. Totally agree on the merit of investigating that thoroughly.

And, as I mentioned already, strengthening of SPV (a la Chris Pacia's work) and 0-conf thru double-spend proofs (h/t @imaginary_username for driving work on this forward).

In all of these things, I don't see how they could be achieved by
stop the development of the client once and for all
Unless you mean for production release purposes.
 
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satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
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Unless you mean for production release purposes.
That's a way to call it more political appeasing.


Apart from that.. I think we'll see a brain drain away from BCH anyway as we've seen a brain drain away from Bitcoin core. Neglecting valid concerns and starting a political campaign against people who you disagree with on technological stuff doesn't create a welcoming climate for free thinking people and developers. We'll see if BU will be able to do anything at all..

I would be glad to be proven wrong but I am not too optimistic.
 

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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Neglecting valid concerns and starting a political campaign against people who you disagree with on technological stuff doesn't create a welcoming climate for free thinking people and developers
I agree with this. However, it cuts in both directions (ABC and SV). And BU officials are not blameless in trying to play politics.
 

torusJKL

Active Member
Nov 30, 2016
497
1,156
But the main problem of BSV is not the unscrupulousness or the ideological derailment of its leaders. In the germ of this project we can already find the most costly mistake an entrepreneur can make in Cryptoland: splitting up to start from scratch whenever a trivial difference of opinion arises.
The old BCH split into the new BCH and BSV.

Meaning both chains have the problem that resulted from it.
BCH has a headstart because it, like back in 2017 BTC, kept the ticker.

If I needed to make a bet I would say BCH will fork again and certainly before BSV.