Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
"But nChain has a good strategy for BCH in my opinion."

@Norway : No no no... nChain has a good *stated* strategy. The *publicly stated* strategy is perfectly fine. But if you have caught Craig et al. repeatedly lying, you cannot possibly be so naive as to assume that this time they are telling the truth.

Recall that Blockstream did not arrive on the scene in 2013/2014 saying "hey we want to choke the Bitcoin tx capacity"... they announced lots of initiatives and we were all cheering them on. But they were lying. They were being manipulative.
The answer is in the SV code. Do you think they have embedded malware?
[doublepost=1541101776][/doublepost]
Are you really surprised after how you treated @Mengerian?
If people are angry at me, they can punish me by explaining why my workaround for OP_CHECKDATASIG is inferior (y)
[doublepost=1541102189,1541101212][/doublepost]

The very first transaction on mainnet with Ka-ching today:
https://blockchair.com/bitcoin-cash/transaction/b6927aec4de75a797497e11310791719af60330703471cbf6828b9b3ce72ad23

We're using off the shelf Java Cards and tweak them for bitcoin with open source code. These cards was originally designed to meet the needs of VISA and MasterCard. It's like taking the weapon from your enemy and use it against him.

(Still a lot more work to do before we go public.)
 

79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
For a larger block size limit, we should focus our efforts on convincing miners + developers that raising the blocksize limit much higher should be a priority.
what if i told you . . . that if all nodes in the network used clients with BU-like architecture, there would be no block size limit?

no, but seriously, we have to believe that BU's approach to the issue is the correct one. namely, there is no hard set blocksize limit, there is a soft limit that corresponds to the known capacity handling limitations of the software. if we do believe that this is the correct approach, then we need to rephrase the discussion. it is not about raising the blocksize limit. it is about optimizing the software. in so doing, we remain competive with other implementations, and to the extent we are successful, we participate in the steering of the protocol.

while we are rephrasing, perhaps norway's BUIP should have been about allocating budgetary resources to pay for capacity optimization.

on another topic: right this moment we have: coingeek 23.61%, BMG 13.19%, okminer 13.19%.

it is quite obvious okminer is acting jointly with the other two: it splits hash with BMG, and together they make up 49.99% of the network, which surely is no coincidence.

one also gleans they could add extra hashpower, not deployed yet so as not to be in control of the majority.

something large is afoot. it seems to me a mistake to ignore this fact based on a condemnation of intellectual dishonesty, or failing to keep promises, or resorting to obfuscation.


EDIT: i neglected to add SVPool, 9.03%. dang.
 
Last edited:
"But nChain has a good strategy for BCH in my opinion."

@Norway : No no no... nChain has a good *stated* strategy. The *publicly stated* strategy is perfectly fine. But if you have caught Craig et al. repeatedly lying, you cannot possibly be so naive as to assume that this time they are telling the truth.

Recall that Blockstream did not arrive on the scene in 2013/2014 saying "hey we want to choke the Bitcoin tx capacity"... they announced lots of initiatives and we were all cheering them on. But they were lying. They were being manipulative.
So ... you are not sure about DSV, you dislike CTOR, and you support a 128 MB Block size. But instead of supporting the team that does what you want, you are disgusted that anybody follows it or cooperates with them?

Reminds me of my desperate attempts to discuss with NO2x-boys, who said: "I want 2mb, but I hate Roger Ver."
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
The answer is in the SV code. Do you think they have embedded malware?
I wouldn't call it malware, no, at least I didn't spot anything like that.

But there is also a clear answer, both from the recent interview of SV devs as well as quite obvious in the code when other developers look at it:

No work on performance improvement has gone into the initial release.
The devs freely admit this, and one of them also admitted it was a rushed release.

No time on a public testnet.
Clearly not able to go near 128MB at this stage, despite the massive humdrum on social media.

False advertising imo, and we need to point it out as it could otherwise damage the reputation of the coin if in November this becomes the main client and the first thing a stress test (planned for 17 Nov with 24M transactions over 24 hours, that would require > 32MB sustained blocks) will show that hashpower "put in charge" an implementation which does not deliver on its main feature.
[doublepost=1541106251][/doublepost]
it is not about raising the blocksize limit. it is about optimizing the software
Spot on, but also agree that something is afoot.
By now I suspect CG etc have a large undisclosed alliance in some BTC hashrate.
This could get very interesting for BTC if those have to be brought over to act in this "hash war".
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
@freetrader

Let's take babysteps:
The max blocksize the software accepts, is not the same as the max blocksize the software can handle without running out of memory on an unspecified computer.

Can we agree on that?
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
@Norway

I don't really see any need to discuss unspecified computers.

If I were a miner, I would actually prefer my software to be configured so that it doesn't fall over.
This already assumes that yes, I would be prepared to spend on hardware (and software) so that I would be able to keep up with network demand.

In babysteps, people have explained patiently that today it's not a matter of throwing a bigger computer at the problems.

Hence @79b79aa8 's remark that software optimization is what's needed.

Also, Bitcoin SV is unfortunately unable to release their test evidence. I suppose they would prefer us to 'trust' it exists. But take heart, they managed to find a ~40MB block they mined, so let's be optimistic. /s
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
I have a bad habit of dancing around issues instead of confronting people directly.
I do it out of love and respect, but now I think it's really a shitty aproach.

I did this on the issue of ABC refusing to cooperate with @Peter R 's great initiative of investigating 0-conf in Italy unless representatives from SV were censored from attending.

At a point, I ran out of patience and asked @solex directly if this was true. Sadly, he confirmed this. We'll do better in the future, I'm sure. But at least, I got an honest answer.

I think I was wrong, trying to be "diplomatic" and ease the question in to people. People prefer direct questions.

So I'll be direct:

@theZerg: What do you think about my solution where you can have oracles without your new OP_CODE?
[doublepost=1541111762][/doublepost]@freetrader
I can't do babysteps together with you, if you cant agree with me on this issue:

The max blocksize the software accepts, is not the same as the max blocksize the software can handle without running out of memory on an unspecified computer.
We should both assume that the other party has something we could learn.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AdrianX

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
I can't do babysteps together with you, if you cant agree with me on this issue
That's unfortunate if you had your mind set on it, but we'll have to leave at that.
We should both assume that the other party has something we could learn.
I'm sure that's the case, but I think I've seen enough of your reasoning on the blocksize to conclude that this is not one of those areas.
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
If I were a miner, I would actually prefer my software to be configured so that it doesn't fall over.
This already assumes that yes, I would be prepared to spend on hardware (and software) so that I would be able to keep up with network demand.
Sure, a miner would love to just worry about asic price, heat, electricity cost etc. But they can't. nChain is making their lazy hammock life harder. You can't just flip the switch on a money printing machine.

I'll use the words CSW haters hate:
You have to compete.
[doublepost=1541112557][/doublepost]Jeeze, @freetrader!

I think we would agree on my effort to find common ground in the quote below, but you can't even do that because you think a man on earth is mean and lying relative to your expectations.

The max blocksize the software accepts, is not the same as the max blocksize the software can handle without running out of memory on an unspecified computer.
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
@freetrader
I'm fully aware that with the current codebase, the challenge is in software and in making the cores working independantly. That the cores take less space, but are not getting faster in 2018. I know this.

What I try to teach you, is on another level. I'ts about how competition creates solutions, and why your current assumptions could be wrong. But I can't give you anything if you don't want to learn.
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
Craig Wright postulating about new OP-codes. And my private findings regarding OP_CHECKDATASIG are factual consistant with his view.

I recommend the whole session, Ryan X Charles has some great ideas on the onboarding problem that is global to BCH but also very relevant to his own business.

But the OP-code things are in this interval:
41 minutes 20 seconds to 42 minutes 50 seconds.

https://keyport.tv/free/4UfQhArSb2rwnp
[doublepost=1541115550][/doublepost]@freetrader
Why do you think OP_CHECKDATASIG is needed when I have proven how it's motivating usecase can be done without it? C'mon!
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
@Norway
because of the other 7 6 use cases which you dismiss out of hand.
I'm excited about these being unlocked come 15 November.
OP_CHECKDATASIG kicks ass!


I'll also support it out of principle given that SV devs actually misrepresented it as adding a lot of code complexity. Something that anyone can easily check is not true, but Chris Pacia set them straight.

EDIT: 7 to 6, as Norway gleefully pointed out the first point was his oracle use case. (y)
 
Last edited:

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
@freetrader

Interesting. 7 usecases.

Let's start on top of the list. Let's start with the first, that was the motivation of @theZerg's initial proposal.

If you have confidence in what you are talking about, you should not fear the path we are going down.

I assume you did your homework.

Are you saying that my proposal/solution does not enable a trusted oracle to give decissions to unknown participants?

EDIT: One of my buddies wrote this about it. It's an article explaining but also giving the low level script solution.
https://www.yours.org/content/betting-using-bitcoin-cash-smart-contracts-f4367d93a6dd

My other buddy "simplified" the script with the new fresh Spedn language:


All this work was done because I called shenanigans.

Before we go down your list further, I want to point out the fact that ABC put 2 reasons for this on their roadmap. Oracle bets and cross chain atomic swaps.

Long story short, they can both be done without this new OP-code.

What is your response to the first point on your seven point list, @freetrader ?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: AdrianX

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
My response is that this I should have said 6 "other" - the first clearly being yours and Bakketun's main described case, and you can now show us the cross chain atomic swap method.

I still think CDS is great if it gives us 5 more potential use cases without a need to construct convoluted scripts.

Also, I think you should definitely check whether miners would like to wait for you to implement scripts for the other 5 use cases (if that's possible at all) or would rather have people be able to use them with CDS/-V as already described by others.
 
  • Like
Reactions: throwaway

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
@freetrader
Ok. I'm doing this in a slow pace.

I have all the time in the world.

Let's just get this straight:
Do you agree that the initial usecase proposed by @theZerg and one of the two reasons on ABC's roadmap for OP_CHECKDATASIG is debunked by me?

We are not going to point 2 on your list until we have settled. I'm not intimidated by a long list of arguments. I will go deep on every single of your points.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
I don't consider it debunked, I consider you have shown a method by which it can be done, but this method has other drawbacks as pointed out beneath the comment I linked to.

Before you go deeper, please let us see your answer to

 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
@freetrader
Funny, @deadalnix responded very fast to this /r/btc post by me while it was constantly downvoted by people who thought it should be downvoted or by computers run by people who thought it should be downvoted.

I guess he tracks "controversial" post on reddit personally ...

Let's start with the first part of @deadalnix' statement.

It's Lamport signatures and predates bitcoin by quite some time.
Is this good or bad, @freetrader ?

In my book, it's very good. But you may give a reason for why it's bad.

What do you think, @freetrader? Raise your voice and give a reason.

Old math is good? Or do you prefer the latest trend?
 
Last edited:

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
I don't consider it debunked, I consider you have shown a method by which it can be done, but this method has other drawbacks as pointed out beneath the comment I linked to.
Wait a minute... Let's roll back. I got distracted by your @deadalnix quote.

I'll honor your words and respect that you put yourself behind them. So you say my method has drawbacks.

What are they? What are the drawbacks?
(At this point, I assume that both you and me know the difference between hashes and asymmetric signatures.)
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
Is this good or bad
From my perspective it really only matters if it's true or not, and the important part is not the name, but whether it's more limited. The part you left out now. You have not commented on that as you have not replied to @deadalnix .

My view is that if it's more limited than CDS I think it would be bad to reject CDS - unless you can show that your proposal is not more limited (i.e. show how it can solve the other use cases).

Briefly coming to atomic swaps - they are also not new even on BCH, having been done in BarterDEX and recently directly between BCH & BTC by the bcoin team (19 Oct).
I would say they don't require CDS at all. Although it's possible that it's on ABC's roadmap because others may be able to show how CDS improves upon the existing methods.
I know @MarkBLundeberg has studied atomic swaps methods in detail and may give input here.
If it's not the case that CDS can be used to improve on existing methods, then I don't know why it appears as a use case on ABC's roadmap.

What are they? What are the drawbacks?
Just refute them in-thread, I don't feel like playing copy and paste games here.
 
Last edited: