Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
i understand that many were snubbed and insulted by the core them. i know that years of censorship are infuriating, and one feels an urge to debunk facetious arguments. i am no stranger to feeling emotionally torn by seeing this life-changing project wantonly derailed . . .

but . . . i would suggest . . .

to *altogether stop* worrying about core/bs/small-blockers and their social media devotees. they've gotten all they wanted, so they can bask in their triumph and continue on their way. best of luck.

if the arguments on the side of parameter-setting by emerging consensus, last-word fork governance, multiple implementation teams, on-chain scaling are correct, then the solution that reflects them will be stronger, more competitive, more resilient, and ultimately preferred by the market. there is no need to vindicate anything to anybody, nor win debate society points. what there is a need for is not to waste mental or emotional energy, nor lose one instant in improving and deploying the open source P2P cryptocurrency and payment system the world is ready for.

it's like when you go through a divorce. you are out of the woods not when you've won the last argument, but when the hurt stops. once you have reached that point, arguments lose their point, and you are free to rebuild.

victory does not lie in showing your opponents that they were wrong, but in not even worrying about them anymore.
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
Anybody who needs a reality check about the status of LN should read the comments from roasbeef and cdecker in the latest /r/bitcoin LN threads.

It is as retarded as expected:

https://archive.fo/Cqvsk

Oh, and what is LN currently? Everybody needs to know the whole network and every upgrade. Please, somebody correct me if I'm wrong. But as far as I can tell, the onion routing part in LN, as it is, is an absolute fraud and a lie to people. It does absolutely nothing.

https://archive.fo/GR66m

Nobody sees a problem with storing a graph with millions of nodes on your phone. The problem is the fucking gossip protocol that needs every node to know about every update in the network.
(Also see the evading comment after that..)

Again, please anybody correct me if I'm wrong. I asked the LN devs repeatedly on /r/btc about these issues (in a very polite manner, not the gutter language I use here) and never got an answer. Which to me is a strong sign, that they very well know that they are lying to the people.

Well, fuck them. They can have Bitcoin Segwit, let them blow that up. Have fun with the desperate people you took for a ride.
 

sgbett

Active Member
Aug 25, 2015
216
786
UK
I'm less sure of this than I was before.

I've been thinking more about whether a store of value (SoV) coin can be "stable" at a high valuation when SoV is its only use case. Now I think if the network effect gets enough of a head start, it might be stable (25% chance?).

Think about it like this: users of the iPhone are willing to pay a lot more money for just a small increase in polish and 'feel'. Suppose for wealthy people and organizations who want to store value, the brand of BTC, the fact that it's already established as a schelling point for SoV, and Core's extreme paranoia about centralization serves the same purpose as the iPhone's 2% advantage in "feel" over android. Maybe they're willing to pay high transaction fees for that.

Of course, a SoV that was also a medium of exchange would be even better because its network effects would synergize. But in the startup world they say that a new entrant will sometimes have to be 10x better than existing solutions to take over its market (likely this only applies to markets with some network effect).

Suppose the SoV network effect is strong. Is BCH 10x better than BTC as cash? Definitely. Is BCH 10x better than BTC as a SoV? Maybe not. Especially if BTC runs up to $100k. Its SoV network effect may be established enough to present that kind of "10x challenge" to BCH.

Of course, I also think there's a decent chance that in that scenario BTC would just slowly bleed SoV users to BCH. There's a lot of uncertainty because we don't know how strong these network effects are with cryptocurrencies.
I can assure you I’m not paying those extra dollars for 2% more feel. :)
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
@go1111111 While I think eventually BCH can have that 10x or 100x edge and more, eventually could be quite a while (longer than this bubble lasts), "there's a lot of fail in a nation" and likely a lot of fail in a network effect, and generally there are so many dynamically competing factors at present that it is almost impossible to get a complete handle on the situation.

What seems easier to see is that BTC with microblocks and Rube Goldberg contraption Layer 2+3+4+... is not going to look very appealing after the crash, when value investors are scrutinizing fundamentals with eyes jaded from the sea of hype in this bubble. If BCH can pick up the commercial-network-effect ball that BTC is so blithely dropping, it may emerge like a phoenix from the ashes of the crash...but then perhaps so could an altcoin.
 
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go1111111

Active Member
If BCH can pick up the commercial-network-effect ball that BTC is so blithely dropping, it may emerge like a phoenix from the ashes of the crash...but then perhaps so could an altcoin.
Here are my current estimates of the chance of ancestors of each of these ledgers to 'win':

BTC: 35% (I'm assuming eventual on-chain scaling for some ancestor)
ETH: 25% (ETH might just be more useful than BCH -- good as cash, and more powerful)
BCH: 15%
Something that doesn't exist yet: 10%
Zcash: 6%
Litecoin: 4% (Charlie is clever, helping BTC fail and positioning LTC as the Core supporter's favorite alt)
ETC: 3%
Monero: 1%
Tezos: 1%
 

NewLiberty

Member
Aug 28, 2015
70
442
Here's the complete bitcoin block times:

Regarding reducing target to 1 minute: I like the idea and I think the upsides outweight the downside.

Whenever I think about this, I come back to what someone (I think @Peter R ) planted into my head: why have a target block time at all? But certainly a reduction to 1 minute is easier to implement, get consensus for and roll out.

EDIT: replaced image with correct one
The edge cases that occur the shorter the block times increase risk without increase in security, higher orphan rates, validation attacks have greater effect, as does latency effects. It increases the advantage for the larger miners.

Upside is more granularity in security acceptance, lower risk of Finney attack.

IMHO, The 10 minute interval is a decent enough balance between these so I don't put any priority on changing it when there is so much else to do just to get to Bitcoin 1.0. OP_Codes, scaling, and forward compatibility are much higher priority, to me anyhow.

Forward compatibility greatly reduces cost of PoS system maintenance, these are the sort of things which make mass adoption feasible. Monkeying around with optimizations that have minimal effect on business is what Core spent all their time doing, not a fan.
 

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
Here are my current estimates of the chance of ancestors of each of these ledgers to 'win':

BTC: 35% (I'm assuming eventual on-chain scaling for some ancestor)
ETH: 25% (ETH might just be more useful than BCH -- good as cash, and more powerful)
BCH: 15%
Something that doesn't exist yet: 10%
Zcash: 6%
Litecoin: 4% (Charlie is clever, helping BTC fail and positioning LTC as the Core supporter's favorite alt)
ETC: 3%
Monero: 1%
Tezos: 1%
But a winner never won by 'chance'. There is no such thing. The chance that a Bitcoin Cash Fork will take place was always 100 percent, because of reasons. We just didn't know it in advance.
 
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NewLiberty

Member
Aug 28, 2015
70
442
But a winner never won by 'chance'. There is no such thing. The chance that a Bitcoin Cash Fork will take place was always 100 percent, because of reasons. We just didn't know it in advance.
Even so, I am no less grateful to all here who have worked so hard to save Bitcoin by implementing the hard fork to Bitcoin Cash.
Each of you will be remembered by history as founding fathers and guardians of the truth in numbers.

Thank you all.
 

8up

Active Member
Mar 14, 2016
120
344
I love how small block (central plan) vs. big blocks (free market) is now decided by the free market.

In that sense we already won. Congratulations to all of us! :)

We're now in the "code to market" phase.
May the soundest code win.
More doing less talking.
Soon (enough) any scaling or usability narrative will either work out or fall apart.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
ub.com
United Bitcoin, by Jeff Garzik

Here it comes...

The Coming Spinoff Bubble

If someone wanted to make a few million USD in a few weeks, at this unique time in history it seems all they would have to do is make a better fake dev team and website (i.e., spend an extra 5 minutes proofreading) than Bitcoin Gold or Bitcoin Diamond, come up with a plausible gimmick, include a modest premine of 100,000 coins, schedule a fork from BTC (or BCH) in a few weeks from now, contact Bittrex and Poloniex, and let Core fans know. Even if the market price is only $100, boom, instant Lambos! They can even stay fully anonymous ("proof of true cypherpunk status").

So I don't see why there won't be a bunch of people doing these spinoffs in the coming months. Many likely will be worth a few hundred each.

And imagine what happens when the serious people come in. Time for BitThereum / Aetherium? Properly done, that is bound to be worth more than $500 as long as Bitcoin Gold and Diamond are.

In other words, this is the next goldrush, akin to the premined altcoin goldrush. No one noticed it before apparently. And there's not even any need for a premine (if these dumb-money investors even care), they can just change to a brand new PoW and buy up all the appropriate equipment in advance (or if they want to make even more, get an ASIC made just for their new algorithm).

20 of these at an average of $500 each means $10,000 tacked on to the total Bitcoin price (BTC+BCH+BTG+...). And that could just be the beginning, because if BCH rises to say $4000, all those other spinoffs might ride the wave to $1500 or so each, and suddenly we get our $50,000 Bitcoin.

You might be wondering: where does all the extra money really come from? How are we hodlers getting all this free money thrown at us?

Well, when people bring up the "market cap dominance index" I always object. I explain that it's a flawed measure by pointing out Bitcoin is the most widely held and broadly dispersed ledger, whereas something like Ripple is the opposite: most of it is held by a few people who are slowly trickling it into the market. This overconcentration in a few hands vastly increases both the market cap and the per-unit price beyond what it otherwise would be.

This is the situation with many of the "top" coins on coinmarketcap.com. Ethereum started via ICO rather than mining. Dash was heavily ninjamined, NEM heavily premined. Besides Monero and Litecoin,* the story is similar down much of the list.

Puffed up market caps, puffed up coin values...for as long as the wealthy premine beneficiaries hold most of their coins tightly (Vitalik was already wealthy before ETH, and as for the rest, once you make $10 or 20 million, why sell the rest? At least for a few years).

But Bitcoin has always had the opposite dynamic. Its pure mining start, long history of intense ups and downs over many orders of magnitude, and sheer popularity and household name value have made the market cap and unit coin price relatively the least puffed up by any overconcentration of holdings.

The many spinoffs are the undoing of this. They introduce this puffing up effect for Bitcoin that was missing since 2013 when Ripple kicked off the heavily premined altcoin craze. This is where the "free money"** comes from; most other altcoins already got it, but Bitcoin never did.

Hopefully there will be secure software that automates the process of sweeping all these spinoffs so people can sell them.

Also, this flips the dynamic of "gotta sell some bitcoins so I can put a little into each possibly-viable altcoin just in case" on its head. Now the dynamic is, "I already have a lot in every spinoff so no need to sell any BTC or BCH to buy some, in fact gonna sell off the really dumb spinoffs and maybe even take some profits on the more promising ones."

Instead of altcoins (alt-ledgers) eating into the Bitcoin ledger's market cap, the spinoffs feed it. Even the partially premined spinoffs. No more, "How the heck did OmiseGO and NEO come out of nowhere and reach #10? Where were those announced?" Now it's, "You already own it. Take the huge gains if you want 'em."

*even these fairly mined coins experience far more concentration than Bitcoin because they have a shorter history and came in when crypto was already a big thing (rumor has it that at one point Goat owned half of all outstanding litecoins, and imagine how much monero Risto Pietila owns as he went in at the very start with millions

**The trick is, it's not really free; it goes to those who sell off the shit-spinoffs early, from those who buy them early and hold them down to zero. Similar to how Ripple (XRP) doesn't really get a free ride; the money comes from people who keep buying as all the old hodlers and premine beneficiaries finally get around to selling (assuming Ripple eventually fails; if it somehow succeeds, this "free money"/"early puff-up effect" just gets subtracted from the ultimate price gains for holders; instead a pump now and a dump later, it becomes a boost now and blunted gains later) . In other words, overconcentration of holdings leads to easy pumpability, but the tradeoff is *eventually* easy dumpability (but as we've seen with Ripple, "eventually" can be years out in a gradual slide or "glass ceiling"/"blunted gains" effect). Bitcoin will be exposed to that dynamic if the spinoff goldrush happens, and like with Ripple and others, it should first result in a huge pump, the dump coming gradually over months or years (but note that this is superimposed on the normal bull/bear bubble dynamics, and the current crypto bubble is liable to pop at any time; we're talking about a bubble within a bubble here))