Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

jbreher

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Dec 31, 2015
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Now I don't follow: If I spent an anyonecanspent, I don't have to put into another anyonecanspent?
And that's why I was thinking you make it a phase-out period.

Of course, what is left in anyonecanspents then would be open for the miners to grab.
Without the new interpretation of anyonecanspend as 'look over here' (i.e. the hack that The Segwit Omnibus Changeset employs to make their abomination a 'soft fork'), an anyonecanspend transaction becomes a transaction that anyone can spend.

In such an environment, all miners will naturally at block t=0+ be including transactions that spend as much value as can fit in a block from such anyonecanspend addresses to private addresses that they control.

I know of no mechanism that suggests once value is bound up in anyonecanspend, it can be transferred only to anyonecanspend.

Of course, once any anyonecanspend transaction is reclaimed in such a manner -- no matter how deep in the chain it is -- then all child transactions will be instantly rolled back. By child, I mean any transaction that includes as an input any UTXO created by that anyonecanspend. And this rollback cascades forward from the point of the anyonecanspend transaction through all progeny to chain tip. And no, it matters not whether those progeny transactions are anyonecanspends.

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EDIT: has anyone looked at Bitcoin Gold? I don't know if it has any merit
Includes Segwit. Different proof of work. Initial publicity was extremely sophomoric - their website was a full scrape of the BABC website, with numerous links that 404'd. Their forking plan keeps changing. They may or may not be getting their shit together since then. No outward evidence of such. Incredulously, starting to get some mindshare in the community.

While it appears that it will be an epic clusterfuck, it does not appear to be any threat to BCH -- both claimed headline 'advantages' (change of PoW, incorporation of segwit) are inimical to widely-recognized Bitcoin Cash principles.
 
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Mengerian

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Zarathustra

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Altough there is no such thing as a probability in the real world: How big is the 'probability' that Garzik's contracting authority represents the interests of a decentralized Bitcoin in general and of the miners according to the white paper in particular? @awemany?

Legendary Justus @ legendary Jeff:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144895.msg1547919#msg1547919

I don't think that you need to be a conspiracy theorist to give it a low probability.
 
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awemany

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Aug 19, 2015
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@Zarathustra, oh some of the actors certainly don't represent the miners, to say it lightly. But I think what is happening here is that the miners made a deal with DCG (and maybe this also includes some legal stuff in the background) where at least the repo and jgarzik is bound to actually implement the spirit of the S2X agreement.

Look at how Jeff is very politely but also firmly declining when the assholes beg him to hand him the deadly weapon that is replay protection against the miners.

I think part of what we see now is the bad actors (and I suspect that might include the DCG, but see below) trying to bail from the second part of the deal through their other, usual propaganda channels and Blockstream - see all the NO2X astroturfing bullshit. Someone is clearly financing that.

There's also the angle that folks behind the DCG might now be loaded enough in Bitcoin and are thus now wanting to set the beast free - and what better way is there than to just let Blockstream burn itself up in a fight against the rest of the ecosystem - look at how bullish this will look if the bad actors are finally failing (but only because the ones behind them, pulling the strings, let them fail - because they loaded up...). And from the DCG's POV, this might be merely sacrificing a pawn in the game.

In that case, the 1MB limit and the bullshitting you could create around it was a perfect opportunity for huge, long-term investors into Bitcoin to suppress the price while loading up. November is the time when that loading is done.

So yeah, these are the two interpretations that are floating in my mind: It is a case of arm wrestling with the miners and the miners actually do have the upper hand when they go through with the 2x part (also with BCH outside the DCG's control as a threat looming), or it is a case of temporary price depression and now it is time to drop the tools (Blockstream) and let the beast free.

Another, more conspiratorial angle is some kind of arm wrestling between the US and China going on.

The three month delay between SF and HF might have also been seen as a win by both sides: Bitcoin's enemies think that it gives them time to contain the HF - and Bitcoin itself (the miners) sees it as time to let the enemy show its true face, show that LN is vaporware and so forth - and thus let the propaganda fall apart this way.

In any case, 2x needs to happen, or I see the whole value proposition of crypto in deep trouble.

But I am bullish: It strongly looks like this is a fight that Bitcoin will win.
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Without the new interpretation of anyonecanspend as 'look over here' (i.e. the hack that The Segwit Omnibus Changeset employs to make their abomination a 'soft fork'), an anyonecanspend transaction becomes a transaction that anyone can spend.

In such an environment, all miners will naturally at block t=0+ be including transactions that spend as much value as can fit in a block from such anyonecanspend addresses to private addresses that they control.

I know of no mechanism that suggests once value is bound up in anyonecanspend, it can be transferred only to anyonecanspend.

Of course, once any anyonecanspend transaction is reclaimed in such a manner -- no matter how deep in the chain it is -- then all child transactions will be instantly rolled back.
But that would mean that the miners orphan a lot of blocks and a lot of block rewards that they earned in the mean time - I don't see that happening. That's just a normal 50% attack. You can't rip up any anyonecanspent that has been spent - without ripping the whole chain apart.
 

awemany

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Beautiful how that softfork/hardfork rhetorics rips itself apart:

SB: "Forking is bad."
BB: "But Bitcoin forked already. We have SegWit activated now."
SB: "Ok. But Bitcoin cannot hard fork. A hard forked Bitcoin is an Altcoin."
BB: "Fair enough. We won't hard fork what you deem Bitcoin. Just softfork it down to 0kB and coincidentally launch what you deem an Altcoin."

Those who say "hard forking is bad and not Bitcoin" are confused - or rather deliberately confusing- about what exactly Bitcoin is in their minds as well - the first part of that mindset "hard forking is bad" assumes S2X is Bitcoin and the latter part denies that S2X is Bitcoin. A double bind tactic.

If S1X is Bitcoin - no worries, no hard fork's gonna happen, just a gentle soft fork down to 1MB.
If S2X is Bitcoin - well, welcome aboard.

Example case.
 

lunar

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Aug 28, 2015
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In any case, 2x needs to happen, or I see the whole value proposition of crypto in deep trouble.
Agree with most of your post especially about DCG. Shillbert is piece of work, (big Gov puppet imho) However with the above quote, i've been trying to reconcile how BTC Cash will coexist with 2X. I don't see a truce happening, they are competing for the same resource.

Would you consider the value proposition dead if Cash came back from the minority position and overtook 2X by scaling faster and onboarding more users? Hashpower follows price. Let say Cash average reached 8MB worth Tx per block within 6 months/year and 2x was still at 2MB/4MB. I think haspower could flow over to the Cash chain, this would still be decentralised and represent the true Bitcoin value proposition. imho.

Essentially we're now looking past Core, they are done, but the settlement layer crew still have the thin end of the wedge in bitcoin with segwit. Those people who stand to gain from rent seeking, will not disappear, they will latch onto the only chain that gives them an in road. Come November we will finally see the free market at work and it will be beautiful. Real competition. Two chains competing for hashpower and users it will be a sight to behold.

I agree, post November HF will be a time to be uber bullish, but I think it would be wise to be fluid with our holdings. Fundamentals will be key, and i'll be watching the Tx count on each chain. Velocity of money is the crux of the investment strategy here, along with user/business adoption. Look out for the same (USAF NO2X) names weighing down the 2X chain with their incessant astroturfung.

Insert - There can only be one meme here.
 

jbreher

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Dec 31, 2015
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But that would mean that the miners orphan a lot of blocks and a lot of block rewards that they earned in the mean time - I don't see that happening. That's just a normal 50% attack. You can't rip up any anyonecanspent that has been spent - without ripping the whole chain apart.
No. The intervening blocks are not invalidated. The individual anyonecanspend transactions become anyonecanspend again. Each block remains valid, so the block rewards stay allocated as they were. Indeed, the coinbase transaction is not an anyonecanspend, so by definition cannot be subject to this same hazard. It is definitively not a standard 50+% attack for this very reason.
 
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adamstgbit

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those anyonecanspend transactions that have already been spend have already been spent.
do you have any witnesses? :D

since segwit introduces a new way of signing TX, if segwit is removed, all child TX are bogus, and the coins end up on the anyonecanspend address untill someone spends it in the traditional way. i guess.
 

jbreher

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Dec 31, 2015
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But those anyonecanspend transactions that have already been spend have already been spent. They can't be spent again.
Only in the topsy-turvey, alice-in-wonderland environment of the economic majority calling them segwit transactions rather than anyonecanspend transactions. As soon as the economic majority jettisons segwit rules, those transactions cease being segwit transactions, and their true nature as anyonecanspend transactions is revealed. Allowing the first miner who mines a block thereafter to suck up their outputs. Thereby creating a cascade of invalid inputs to progeny transactions.

Is this really not open knowledge over here?
 

adamstgbit

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Mar 13, 2016
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@jbreher
its very counter intuitive...

This " what if we undo segwit" conversation just goes to show that its not possible to undo segwit... bitcoin has become segwit-coin, and segwit-coin will now start phasing out bitcoin TX from its blockchain. there is no going back,

but hey, Bitcoin Cash dont care, Bitcoin Cash is the honey badger
 

awemany

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Aug 19, 2015
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@jbreher: I can spend SegShit outputs to an ordinary P2SH for example, right?

So where is that anyonecanspend then, anymore? I can use the current, SegShit-unaware BU client then, for example, to further spend these outputs.

All of that is being recorded in the Bitcoin transaction merkle tree, and I don't have to care about the SegShit witness tree. It will look like there has been an anyonecanspent in the chain, but I cannot rip that up without touching the blocks - as it is all committed through the merkle tree, and by dropping my transactions, the miners would invalidate the blocks.

So .. where can the miners take my money?
 

Justus Ranvier

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Aug 28, 2015
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So .. where can the miners take my money?
When a segwit output is spent in a broadcast-but-not-yet-mined transaction, anyone who sees that transaction could write a new transaction that spends those same inputs but credits their own outputs.

Segwit-enforcing nodes do not relay such transactions, and segwit-enforcing miners do not mine such transactions, but if segwit enforcement stopped then every time someone spends their segwit balances they would be at risk for losing them.
 

Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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But the chain still has to look valid to non-segwit nodes. And Segwit coins can be spent back into regular Bitcoin coins so even if Segwit evaporated next block, such transactions would still have to be valid. This means that when coins are claimed from an anyone-can-spend address, they stay claimed. Unless we're talking about rolling back a bunch of blocks.

Of course, I'm working from logic which has failed me before when I've tried to apply it to Segwit so I'd appreciate if someone with advanced technical knowledge could weigh in at this stage.

Just for clarity, I'm not talking about unclaimed anyone-can-spend TXs, just ones that have already been claimed.

@jbreher sorry if it seems I'm doubting you but there has been a lot of misinformation surrounding Segwit from both sides and I just want things to be clear in my mind.
 

Dusty

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Mar 14, 2016
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Speaking of the bad EDA on Bitcoin Cash and the fact that an hard fork is needed to correct it I would like to make the case for a shorter interval time between blocks.

First of all I know there is no difference in security (the cumulative PoW remains approximately the same), and I know that a shorter time may cause more orphans, but techs like xthin mostly solve this problem.

The point I want to make is that a shorter time block gives the user a much more smooth experience: to be able to see the sent transaction mined after (for example) a minute is great, while now we have to wait one magnitude more, and if the tx did not make into the block , another long wait is due.

Most non-technical people I know tell me they prefer ethereum to bitcoin because "the funds arrives faster", and while there always is a compromise between security and time, I can understand their point.

So, my proposal would be to rip off the EDA now that the fork has been a success, and use the original Satoshi algorith with the only simple difference to use a block time around 1 minute.

Many consider the original Satoshi retargeting as suboptimal because, due to the long time needed for a difficulty readjust, it gives an unfair advantage to the original chain in respect to forks but I see this as a bonus, not as a weakness: it means that for a fork to happen there must be a strong commitment by his users and the miners (like it was for Bitcoin Cash).

I'm interested in knowing your opinions on the matter.
 

Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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I have no big objection with moving to slightly faster blocks in principle though I think we would need to adjust the block reward at the same time. It may even have been a decent alternative to raising the block size limit. Perhaps allow miners to mine at more than one difficulty but adjust the reward accordingly. Though aren't weak blocks supposed to address this somewhat?

The long difficulty adjustment time is great for making sure that a weaker chain dies quickly in the event of an accidental fork but it turns out it's potentially problematic when it is up against a chain which is willing to use a different difficulty routine in order to capture hashrate. If Bitcoin Cash had used a difficulty adjustment algorithm which was willing to remain (slightly) more profitable than BTC and not readjust the difficulty upwards if blocks are coming in faster than 10 minutes, it seems it could have caused real problems for BTC (albeit that it is enhanced by BTC running at capacity and BCC might have burned itself up in the process).

The wild swings of the hashrate for BCC seems to me to be somewhat emblematic of not really knowing what they were trying to achieve with it or conflicting goals. (Though BCC itself seems well focussed)
 
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adamstgbit

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1 min blocks probably becomes increasingly problematic (orphen rate increases) as block size increases, even with thin blocks. I think BCC would get criticised for changing it from 10mins to XXseconds... and we all know its not the number of blocks that count, its the amount of POW....

10mins if fine, I would rather see increased confidance in 0conf TX.
without RBF and minners minning "first seen" when it comes to double spends, its trival to get a very high degree of confidence that the 0conf TX will confrim / is safe.

we could build on that with a softfork which allows other miners to reject a block which appears to have selected the wrong TX(not the first seen) for a double spend. with that in place add some new kind of state "fully propagated 0conf that will soon confirm"
user might see somthing like

"unconfirmed"
10 seconds later
"confirming"
10 mins later
"1 confirmations"

it would be said that once it hits "confirming" ( within about 10seconds ) there's a 99% chance it will get included in the next block. and after 6 confirmations there is a 99% chance that it won't get reorged.

this would advertize the idea that bitcoin cash TX are truly "nearly instant", and at the same time demonstrate how "bitcoin" has deviated from its roots.
 
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jbreher

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Dec 31, 2015
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@jbreher sorry if it seems I'm doubting you but there has been a lot of misinformation surrounding Segwit from both sides and I just want things to be clear in my mind.
No problem - I'm just kind of thinking out loud anyhow. There may be portions I don't have right either.

But the chain still has to look valid to non-segwit nodes.
But it does. Indeed, this ugly hack is the fundamental means by which The Segwit Omnibus Changeset is a soft fork. To a non-segwit node, a segwit transaction within a block appears to be an anyonecanspend transaction. Indeed, the only reason that it is not an anyonecanspend transaction is because miners no longer consider it an anyonecanspend. If they -- a majority of hashpower -- change back to considering it to be an anyonecanspend, then it is an anyonecanspend.

Admittedly, I did propagate an error above however. Despite the name 'anyonecanspend', it is not so simple as 'anyone'. It appears that the spender must at minimum know the public key. Though it should be noted that, when the 'rightful' owner (i.e., the originally intended recipient) tries to spend that as an input to a new transaction, he must present the public key. Which of course the miners are freely able to see and use to create a new transaction that spends it to a new address that the miner controls.

And Segwit coins can be spent back into regular Bitcoin coins so even if Segwit evaporated next block, such transactions would still have to be valid. This means that when coins are claimed from an anyone-can-spend address, they stay claimed. Unless we're talking about rolling back a bunch of blocks.
Yeah, I might have been wrong about that. Still thinking.
 

79b79aa8

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Sep 22, 2015
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I would like to make the case for a shorter interval time between blocks.
[...]
my proposal would be to rip off the EDA now that the fork has been a success, and use the original Satoshi algorith with the only simple difference to use a block time around 1 minute.
what, in your view, was the original reason for 10 min. blocks?
 

Justus Ranvier

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Just for clarity, I'm not talking about unclaimed anyone-can-spend TXs, just ones that have already been claimed.
Spent transaction outputs don't exist any more.

If unspent segwit outputs are stored in the chain as P2SH scripts, then it's not possible to know they have segwit redeem scripts until somebody tries to spend them.

If segwit enforcement stopped at some point in the future, then it wouldn't matter to spent segwit outputs. Their scripts would be interpreted now as being hypothetically spendable by anyone, however like any transaction output they could have only been spent once and the transactions that were mined were the transactions that spent them.

At that point only unspent segwit outputs would be at risk, and then only when the owner tried to spend them.