Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[Christoph Bergmann]

core no longer cares (or never cared...) about consensus. If its not them dictating consensus, then there is no consensus
[doublepost=1505491132,1505490240][/doublepost]so i read the PBOC's open letter about the ICOs, and two things come to mind.

1) these exchanges were dumb enough to allow Crazy Toxic ICO trading on there platforms??? wtf did they expect that the PBOC would let them trade toxic shit forever without ever interfering?? good job exchanges you've proved to the PBOC that you cannot self regulate. EPIC FAIL

2) i dont understand why these exchanges are shutting down, there seems to be no official request to shut them down, the PBOC seem to want to shut down all the ICOs... not necessarily bitcoin trading itself, which is understandable, i mean that ICO shit is going to burn most 95%? "investors" sooner or later, you have to be pretty naive not to see that.

of course google translate does a poor job with chinese...

I can't help but think that the PBOC has reached out privately to these exchanges, and told them to shut down.

There was this quote in the statement of ViaBTC that reminded me strongly at something a chinese author wrote for me when the "china bans Bitcoin" story started in early 2014.

ViaBTC wrote something like "As a responsible company, we try to act according to the intent of the PBOC's statement." Important word is INTENT.

Readers who are familiar with Chinese culture know that it is customary for subjects to act in accordance with their Lord’s will, and to act without the command actually being given. Sometimes it is a matter of life or death. This self-regulation is an attempt to act in accordance with the Lord’s will, not in accordance with his orders. ... The stories have a simple moral. Not that the Chinese are horribly cruel (I did try to find a fairytale, but cruel stories from history always come in handy). The simple moral is this: acting on the Lord’s will without being ordered to is a good strategy, but whether or not it works depends on what you are. Are you one of us, or a foreigner? Are you a naughty child evading punishment, or you are an enemy? ...

https://bitcoinblog.de/2014/05/12/bitcoin-is-not-a-naughty-child/

My interpretation is that both BTCC and ViaBTC sacrifice one part of their business - the exchange - to get pardon for their sins and to to save the other part of their business - the mining. OkCoin and Huobi have less sins (ICO), but risk to lose their whole business. So they try to save it at all costs.

 

[79b79aa8]

BTCC and ViaBTC are not entirely sacrificing the exchange part of their business, they are closing their exchanges in mainland China. It is to be expected that they will open up again in a different jurisdiction, or perhaps attempt to partner with / buy out existing exchanges. The PBOC is taking out their Yuan<>crypto customers, but BTCC and ViaBTC can continue to leverage mined coins on exchanges they control.

The quicker large players such as BitPay and Bitstamp deploy Bitcoin Cash support, the quicker a SegWit2X fork will be revealed as unnecessary. If the NYA option is removed from the table, the market can forget about the November deadline and definitively settle in the present reality, which generated wealth and seems to leave no actor majorly dissatisfied.

The sound and the fury can be put behind. Ideally, both BTC and BCC can continue to grow.

 

[Mengerian]

BitcoinCash is not centrally controlled, BUCash already supports EC, its only ABC, XT and Classic that support the limit. I too like BIP101 it's still my favorite solution.

Bitcoin ABC already has a user-adjustable block size limit. In fact, that where the name came from ("Adjustable Blocksize Cap"). It also has plans to add more automated block limit increases in the future, like EC but implemented in a different way.

I believe XT and Classic also have provisions for letting their users increase the node's block size limit.

 

[AdrianX]

thanks @Mengerian that's great news, quick question with the default configuration in BU I know an excessive block would be accepted after 12 confirmations, with ABC would the node have the same EC function or would the node just stop following the chain?

 

[rocks]

Some interesting global cogs are turning leaving me to think we're leaning closer towards a global currency reset.

That last time the debt to GDP ratio was at today's level was 1929, and we know how well that worked out. That orgy of debt was enabled by the creation of central banking and their ability to issue guarantees on money created from thin air. When the debt bubble burst the amount of money owned exceeded the amount of base money in existence by well over 10x, and was unpayable even for central banks.

Back then currency (dollars) still had a link to base money (gold), so unpayable meant default, which was FDR's gold ban.

Today there is no link, so unpayable simply means CTLR-P, as we saw in 2009 this was their only solution (and their use was Satoshi's motivation).

The thing is CTLR-P will work until people no longer accept or use what the printer produces, personally I think we are a ways from that.

 

[rocks]

@rocks

There's quite a few new revelations you might have missed wrt Bitcoin and it's deep structure. Basically it's Turing complete, which if i've understood the chat correctly means the 2PDA (push down automata) structure, allows all sorts of interesting programming. I think it's very basic machine code or a state machine, and needs a complier and an entirely new coding language, something nChain has been hinting they have in the pipeline.

Thanks for the links. I looked at nChain (no too deeply though) it is likely I do not fully understand their approach, but from what I have seen their solutions seem to simply rely on 3rd party agents for off chain computation, agents that require trust. For example:

nChain’s secure voting regime relies on the ability to securely track ballot papers (that are represented by public keys) allowing the agent to track the votes through monitoring when these keys are used to submit a user’s ballot. Once the ballot has been submitted, the agent can count from the published blocks the number of votes cast. More pertinently, this voting also allows cut-offs after which a vote is no longer valid that can be restricted either by the block height, or the time.

If you require trust in a 3rd party off chain entity, then there are other options than building on top of Bitcoin, and it is not clear how this is better than other off bitcoin options, such as a voting website. With what is described above there is nothing binding the off bitcoin agent to follow the results of the vote, you have to trust it. Using keys for voting is just a way to pass information to the agent, well there are other ways that do not require bitcoin. nChain looks to be more focused on patents than real usage IMHO.

Boxing bitcoin into the small number of allowed "standard transactions" limits functionality, that may be a good thing or a bad thing. But it is simply not possible to offer true Ethereum-like or zcash-like or [insert here]-like functionality. There is space in the wide world of crypto solutions for multiple chains covering very different usage types, but every other chain offers Bitcoin's base functionality plus something else. Long-term that seems to be a problem. Again I am not saying Bitcoin should add Ethereum functionality to its chain, but I do believe Bitcoin's transactions need to be more functional and improve with the times.

 

[satoshis_sockpuppet]

Yup, geopolitical tensions are the highest I've witnessed in my lifetime.

No idea how old you are, but people tend to forget pretty quickly and see the current time as the "superlative x" time.

I'm not saying that times aren't interesting but if you look back at the last 100 years of western history, we've seen a lot worse times. And the cold war with the high probability of a nuclear war / end of the world wasn't that long ago (and I'm too young to have witnessed the heights myself).

If you require trust in a 3rd party off chain entity, then there are other options than building on top of Bitcoin, and it is not clear how this is better than other off bitcoin options, such as a voting website.

Well, if I'm not confused it's easy to prove if said 3rd party calculated correctly without watching the whole blockchain/doing the dirty work.

nChain looks to be more focused on patents than real usage IMHO.

They apparently patented a lot of trivial or already know stuff. (Someone mentioned they patented secret sharing for keys??)


I'm looking forward to see, if the currently distributed "China bans Bitcoin (including P2P etc)" document is a hoax. As far as I know, btcdrak was the source for that document.. And Adam Back and his people jumped right on it and started a "1 MB or censorship" propaganda move on twitter, including their fucking Blockstream satellite program (who knew that they'll use it as a 1 MB propaganda tool... right, everyone with two working brain cells) bullshit. They'll take any opportunity for their campaigns.

 

[lunar]

I don't remember the cold war, if thats what you're asking ;-)

 

[Zarathustra]

Some interesting global cogs are turning leaving me to think we're leaning closer towards a global currency reset.

What's a 'currency reset'? You can't reset a currency. A society (homo oeconomicus) is always debt/credit based, and that construct always grows rampant until it eventually collapses. The collapse of the society (all monetary assets disappear) is the reset. That's the difference between the homo oeconomicus (society = rise and fall) and the homo sapiens (community). The communities of the homo sapiens didn't grow rampant because they didn't have money (debt/credit/government).

It seems that the society has learned to manage a much higher asset/debt sum than ever before.
According to Kotlikoff, total assets/debt are much higher today than 1929:

http://investmentwatchblog.com/real-us-debt-is-over-210-trillion-per-kotlikoff-why-are-they-fighting-over-a-fake-debt-ceiling-which-is-under-20-trillion/

 

[satoshis_sockpuppet]

@lunar
Hm, including the climate change in the doomsday clock is a bit sensationalist in my view.

And am I blind or is 1962 missing in that picture?

 

[satoshis_sockpuppet]

Oh, and isn't it funny how a few weeks ago /r/bitcoin was talking about ways to get rid of "Chinese miners" (including PoW change) and now suddenly it's utterly important to keep the Chinese miners connected to the rest of the network?

 

[AdrianX]

A society (homo oeconomicus) is always debt/credit based, and that construct always grows rampant until it eventually collapses.

People are attempting to avoid this outcome some of them are very smart and creative people (greed or working in the interest of the greedy being the fundamental flaw in preserving the existing structure) I expect to see efforts to avoid that outcome at almost any costs.

I think @rocks is correct

The thing is CTLR-P will work until people no longer accept or use what the printer produces, personally I think we are a ways from that.

Currency reset is going to involve many things what will be most notable is regional fiat currencies will not change, what will change is how they are underwrite and backed. What I've seen explained is we'll likely move to a more structured "global lender of last resort", (IMF BIS type global Central bank) and 50% of a nations currency value will be determined by GDP defined by a hand full of global commodities, denominated in a global reserve defined as a basket of other currencies, and 50% will be subject to the local central bank's inflation policy.

It seems that the society has learned to manage a much higher asset/debt sum than ever before.
According to Kotlikoff, total assets/debt are much higher today than 1929:

Interesting yes there are

Their are many other forms of capital mainly nature that are not accounted for they have also been exhausted and are approaching collapse.

I think of this asset/debt management like a balancing act on top of a formation of computer controlled quad-copters balancing a long stick on a pin and spinning a plate on the top and with each new innovation in computational dynamics another quad-copter is added to the formation.

At some point something will go wrong and it's going to be dynamic and uncontrollable, we're going to resort back to just quad copters flying in formation without the balancing act of leveraged assets and debt.

 

[Richy_T]

Something else to thank Core for.

Due to the boost given to Ethereum by Core's abject mishandling of growth and scaling, GPUs are being gobbled up to mine in a huge gold-rush. AMD and NVIDIA graphics cards are now being sold for multiple hundreds of dollars more than they were even eight months ago. People are reporting being able to sell their used cards at $100 premium on what they bought them for. It's madness out there.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gpu/comments/6ii9gc/ethereum_sucks/

 

[Richy_T]

Maxwell clearly operates on the Cersei/Ramsey/Frey paradigm. He has no real power but he uses incessant bullshit to abuse your goodness into extending benefit of the doubt.

Certainly the Cersei from the books where she thinks she's being clever and sneaky but actually just bumbles from one mistake to the next.
[doublepost=1505684717,1505683616][/doublepost]

It seems that the society has learned to manage a much higher asset/debt sum than ever before.
According to Kotlikoff, total assets/debt are much higher today than 1929:

The trick is probably to have got more people invested in maintaining the fiction.

 

[satoshis_sockpuppet]

Please tell me that everybody at /r/bitcoin is a paid shill by now. I really don't want to believe, that people are really that stupid...

1.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/70vftn/luke_dashjr_on_twitter_wed_frankly_be_better_off/

Approval of luke-jr's "geek niche product" thinking.. They are agreeing in public that Bitcoin should be kept small. WTF

2.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/70ubef/how_many_of_the_segwit2x_signees_have_implemented/

People/companies signed an agreement with the core terrorists so they get their fucking toy (SW). And now, these companies are bad because they don't use the toy they didn't ask for? Because it's a pain in the ass to implement?

 

[adamstgbit]

@satoshis_sockpuppet
1.
juke-jr is a lunatic.

2.
it would be very surprising that /r/bitcoin does not have "paid trolls". we know these trolls AKA moderators are banning poeple, censoring post and manipulating the up/down votes. its really hard to believe they don't also try to direct the atmosphere by posting what they want poeple to see using many socket puppet accounts.

 

[solex]

The latest BU membership vote is now open.

This is an important vote as it guides the future of BU in a major way for the next few years. It will determine whether Bitcoin Cash becomes equal or primary focus for development, a change to give the BU lead developer more discretion over paying for development work, funding for further outreach, and support for the Gigablock Testnet Initiative. The latter is particularly important to both Bitcoin legacy and Bitcoin Cash as scalability is the no.1 technical issue holding back many use-cases.

BUIP062: Funded Development, aka Devpool

BUIP063: Support Bitcoin Cash with an official implementation

BUIP064: Support Segwit2x with an official implementation

BUIP065: Gigablock Testnet Initiative

BUIP066: Ecosystem Outreach for Onchain Scaling, Part II

BUIP067: New Members for Election #7

 

[Christoph Bergmann]

@satoshis_sockpuppet
1.
juke-jr is a lunatic.

2.
it would be very surprising that /r/bitcoin does not have "paid trolls". we know these trolls AKA moderators are banning poeple, censoring post and manipulating the up/down votes. its really hard to believe they don't also try to direct the atmosphere by posting what they want poeple to see using many socket puppet accounts.

It would be very pitty if these poor souls get no money for their trolling.

 

[satoshis_sockpuppet]

Bitcoin Cash working against the trend of the rest of the cryptocurrencies.. That's great to see!

 

[79b79aa8]

. . . except it is a nuisance for those who have yet to complete a full norway.