Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Justus Ranvier

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Aug 28, 2015
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I think this article does a good job explaining why we're seeing fractal social conflict: what looks a lot like the same battle being fought in otherwise unrelated arenas, at all scales of human interaction:

https://medium.com/deep-code/situational-assessment-2017-trump-edition-d189d24fc046

What does a technical debate in Bitcoin have to do with US electoral politics?

This war is about much more than ideology, money or power. Even the participants likely do not fully understand the stakes. At a deep level, we are right in the middle of an existential conflict between two entirely different and incompatible ways of forming “collective intelligence”.
 

adamstgbit

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2016
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just wondering, do BU minning nodes do RBF?
no RBF and no CPFP
doesn't this means RBF is now kinda broken?
There's not a bad chance that:
a) The next block is a BU block, in which the TX is included and the RBF-TX isn't.
b) The next few blocks are BU blocks, all of which ignore your RBF-TX and also dont include the original-TX because its fee is insufficient. ( which may add a few blocks delay to your RBF-TX confirming )

right? or is it that BU minners will see the RBF-TX as a new TX, include it into its block, and consider the original-TX a double spend?

side note: I dislike RBF ( even if it was made opt-in) cuz it downgrades 0conf .
 
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Mengerian

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@Justus Ranvier, interesting article.

Seems to me the dynamic described unfolds within a larger context of the economics of violence. Specifically the balance between the cost of aggression versus the cost of defense. The development of technologies that change this balance create a shifting battle field in the struggle between centralized power structures and those seeking autonomy.

For example, the rise of the Internet makes it very inexpensive to build new channels of communication, and the proliferation of channels would take huge resources to monitor and control. Traditional media was expensive to set up, and was relatively easy to channel though gatekeeper control.

Similarly, the rise of knowledge workers makes it easier for individuals to work independently, without channeling their pay through one entity where it can be taxed at source. This makes tax enforcement more costly, and avoidance easier. The ability to work remotely in foreign jurisdictions tilts the balance even further.

Industrial era capital resources tend to be large and fixed in place, which makes it difficult to avoid control. Governments or Unions can hold the assets hostage to extort tribute to pay for their power structure. Companies whose assets are based on intellectual resources and services can more nimbly route around controls. For example, Netflix is able to avoid the burdensome regulatory oversight of regulators (so far). AirBnb, Uber, and Open Bazaar, are other examples.

Of course, Bitcoin also falls within this category, perhaps one of the most powerful technologies so far to shift power away from aggressive control.

I've basically summarized the thesis of the book "The Sovereign Individual".

One way it relates to the Trump phenomenon is that as power shifts from centralized states more towards the individual, we can expect more inequality within states, and less inequality between states. This is because the highly skilled can keep more of the product of their labor, without it being subject to forcible redistribution. This benefits the skilled in poor countries (like programmers in India), and hurts the lower-skilled in rich countries (such as unionized factory workers). As a result, the book predicts a rise of nationalistic sentiment as the lower-skilled masses see they are losing out to foreign competition.

So according this analysis, nationalism is not the end game, but merely a side effect. The end game is a rebalancing of sovereignty to individuals, small geopolitical entities (eg. Singapore), and voluntary groups that may be local or geographically dispersed.
 
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Norway

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Sep 29, 2015
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Just figured out that all the blocks defined as Classic on nodecounter.com are BIP109. These are mined by Slush and GoGreenLight, 4 blocks from Slush, 6 blocks from GoGreenLight.

I don't think any of the other pools defined as BU are mining the latest version of Classic 1.2 with emergent consensus parameters but mistakenly are called BU. Because they have all been very outspoken of BU support. These pools are ViaBTC, BTC.TOP, GBMiners and Bitcoin.com. Slush is also mining BU.

My point is that none of the two Classic pools have upgraded to Classic 1.2, and will not be able to support a move to larger blocks, due to the restrictions in BIP109.

Just sayin'...
 

Justus Ranvier

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Aug 28, 2015
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So according this analysis, nationalism is not the end game, but merely a side effect. The end game is a rebalancing of sovereignty to individuals, small geopolitical entities (eg. Singapore), and voluntary groups that may be local or geographically dispersed.
"Rebalancing" is a word that sounds a lot neater than the process it describes.

The last time the West had a rebalancing of the nature we're about to see was the Protestant Reformation, which lead to a century and a half of constant war and sometimes per-capita death rates exceeding the two 20th century world wars.

Then the rebalancing was caused by the breakup of the religious monopoly held by the Catholic Church.

This time around we're seeing the breaking up of the culture monopoly held by Old Media.

When Europeans were suddenly presented with a variety of religious practices from which to choose, they did so and promptly starting killing any neighbors who choose differently.

Now that we're presented with a sudden increase in the availability of alternate political/social viewpoints, we're getting busy attacking any neighbors who choose differently than us:

https://itsgoingdown.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/C3oGhpKVMAED15W-1.jpg
 

Mengerian

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Aug 29, 2015
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"Rebalancing" is a word that sounds a lot neater than the process it describes.
Totally agreed. I'm not sure what word would be better though.

I think it's a bit unpredictable how things will play out though. I agree that there will likely be lots of disruption in the years ahead, and there are many who will want to lash out violently. As the unsustainable financial arrangements channeled through State structures inevitable collapse, there will be many who lose out.

Perhaps a saving grace, though, is that there's a possibility that the shift away from inefficient State organization of society could unleash immense economic energy, creating incredible prosperity. Similar to how increases in productivity (and imports from China) have masked the effects of monetary inflation in the US. If there is a large productive surplus, it might keep standards of living rising even for those who lose their state-supported privileges.

So that's my hope.

In any case, probably not a bad idea to prepare one's self by avoiding dependence on government programs, building your own marketable productive skills, finding a good social network and getting to know your neighbors, etc. And of course buy and hold Bitcoin!
 

AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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Thanks for the link @Justus Ranvier my favorite quote and very pertinent to bitcoin.

The conflict of the 21st Century is about forming a Collective Intelligence that can outwit and out innovate all of its competitors. The central challenge is to innovate a way of collaborating and cohering individuals that maximally deploys their individual perspectives, capabilities, understandings and insights with each-other.
 

Norway

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Sep 29, 2015
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This is the kind of estimates I like. Would like to see the math behind it:


EDIT: And connection speed will be no problems. Not even on phones in a crowded place! Check out this amazing video:
 
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79b79aa8

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Sep 22, 2015
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let's have the important people get in a room and work out an agreement! can't we all get along?

those who think their twitter wars or closed door meetings are going to decide anything can keep playing with their little phones.

meanwhile, it turns out that a good third of the real volume is coming from japan.
 

Mengerian

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Aug 29, 2015
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Something to be aware of / track:

https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5rqvwc/btcnegotiate_on_freenode_a_working_group_to/

The best news is that nullc is not prepared to compromise at all.
This is good for BU.
Their ideas:
Perhaps renaming "SegWit" to "PandaBlocks" or "DragonChain" or "JihanPresentsBitcoinAccelerated".
Kinda seems like insulting the intelligence of the miners using disrespectful racial/cultural stereotypes might not be the best tactic..
 

awemany

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Aug 19, 2015
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There's absolutely nothing to compromise on.

Bigger blocks first, and if the ecosystem decides to fix malleability with SegWit, FlexTrans or whatever - or alternatively decides against it (or, my preference: takes a longer, harder, more honest, less propagandized look at the proposed changes, such as 'fixing' malleability in terms of ecosystem impact, long-term miner income etc.) ... then that is completely separate from fixing the crippling on-chain bottleneck.

Separate issues.


Really. I don't even know what they want to talk about while keeping a straight face.

And it should also be noted that we're dealing with folks such as Luke, Theymos, Greg, Adam and a bunch of affiliated folks here who have not been at all able to compromise, be reasonable and some of them not even nice-mannered. You don't compromise with ill-intended people.

The idea of compromise is laughable in face of the bullshit that went on with rBitcoin, the ML, the IRC, and the absolute, unbearable arrogance of the folks involved.

But that isn't even my main point. The above is.
 
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AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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Something to be aware of / track:

https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5rqvwc/btcnegotiate_on_freenode_a_working_group_to/

The best news is that nullc is not prepared to compromise at all.
This is good for BU.
The 1MB limit is not part of the bitcoin protocol, it is a soft fork limit introduced in 2010 - what a ridiculous stance these small block fundamentalists are taking calling it "core".
jecooper@alum.mit.edu said:
The point is, we need to find a deal that appeals to everyone and preserves the integrity of the core protocol.
they should try backing the bitcoin protocol not some proprietary 1MB "core" protocol.

*edit

It's also disingenuous to refer to the participants as "we" in "we need to find a deal" - bitcoin is supposed to be decentralized and discussing of the proverbial "we" on a forum where proponents of moving the limit are banned, speaks volumes as to who "we" includes and does not include and who gets to voice an opinion in this "deal".
 
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AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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And it should also be noted that we're dealing with folks such as Luke, Theymos, Greg, Adam and a bunch of affiliated folks here who have not been at all able to compromise, be reasonable and some of them not even nice-mannered. You don't compromise with ill-intended people.
BU launched as a very small idea that was discussed right here, by a bunch of volunteers - I thank all of you and especially those who did way more than I did - (not to mention I was fairly skeptical) we have found a solution that is consistent with the bitcoin protocol. The Idea behind BU is an idea that preseeded segwit and all other scaling solutions post BIP101 and has survived the most rigorous criticism.

BS/Core have been on a 2 year propaganda campaign pushing their addenda and hosting private back door meeting to get stake holder buy-in.

The new solution they finally arrived at and actually proposed post segwit deployment was to implement a block size limit of 300Kb that increased above 1MB in 7 years.

I agree no compromise is necessary, BS/Core should implement the solutions they have presented and let the market figure it out. They have had a lot of time to make their case and have failed despite being advantaged with censorship on every bitcoin discussion forum of note.

It is time to move on, they could get out the way or start supporting bitcoin and reviewing and testing BU code, the choice is theirs.
 
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jbreher

Active Member
Dec 31, 2015
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The only valid concern, in my opinion, is the n^2 issue ...
While this is admittedly tangential to your point, I struggle to understand the fetishization of the quadratic hash time issue. While any single node may fall victim to its characteristics, mining incentives -- already today, with no changes to the protocol -- are such to render this a non-problem from the standpoint of the system as a whole.

If one miner churns endlessly to validate an aberrant block, it will certainly be out-competed by another miner that gets back to hashing. Any block built atop the aberrant block cannot be validated before the aberrant block itself. Another solved block -- peer to the aberrant block, and mined by one operating in the mode described above -- will be validated and built atop before the aberrant block can be validated. Net result is that the aberrant block gets orphaned.

Why the angst?
 
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