Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[adamstgbit]

my hero.

 

[albin]

@AdrianX

I love the irony that a hardforking change can't possibly be a 51% attack because it requires clients to all opt-in to the new software, whereas the softforking mechanism literally is a 51% attack from the perspective of the old clients!

 

[sickpig]

One of the most insightful thoughts I've heard about HF in the last few weeks:

 

[sickpig]

 

[awemany]

Every miner should think very hard about this opinion - but stated like a fact - in the Lightning Network white paper:

At the same time, it is desirable to create a system which does not actively use this timestamping system unless absolutely necessary, as it can become costly to the network.

And ... is it really a good idea to call malleability a bug that needs to be fixed, or is there already some manipulation through language going on and maybe having malleability is a good trade-off in Bitcoin right from the beginning?

Lightning needs a malleability fix to function and to allow off-chain multi-hop channels to work.

But exactly that would also allow an overlay network that becomes more and more decoupled from the Bitcoin network, not unlike the history of banks and gold (eventually no one uses gold anymore and it just sits in cold storage) while also attacking the base layer through usurpation of fees meant to pay for that base layer.

We have payment channels already, and we can form networks out of those, albeit with some counterparty risk.

Isn't that enough off-chain capability for Bitcoin already?

 

[adamstgbit]

lol core's using the alert system to persuade old nodes to upgrade to the lastest, nodoubt an attempt at incressing segwit nodes, sneaky sneaky
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/5p35z3/urgent_alert_key_compromised_upgrade_required/

 

[Inca]

If anyone was in any doubt as to whats going on here, this post and the torrent of hate it produced should remove it all.


Ladies and gentlemen we are under coordinated attack.

Yep. Been fairly obvious that there is a well funded movement to stop bitcoin scaling. The problem they have is they cannot stop every blockchain scaling. Eventually the market will find a way - and it won't be following that toxic egotist Maxwell.

Just watched the Trump inauguration. Sounds like globalism is in his sights and protectionism may be around the corner. Usually what follows that is war..:-/

 

[Justus Ranvier]

Sounds like globalism is in his sights and protectionism may be around the corner. Usually what follows that is war..:-/

The coming wars are going to be the consequence of decades of globalism and multiculturalism.

This resurgence of nationalism we're starting to see as around the world will be too little, too late to stop it.

 

[lunar]

@Justus Ranvier @Inca

Maybe it's just the optimist in me, but I think you are both being a little too pessimistic here. The one major thing thats changed since the last great war is the information flow with the internet. People are beginning to see the truth. The large power structures on the planet > larger than nation states, are no longer working in the interest of the majority and breaking down.

Yes global war and chaos are one path to an decentralised anarchistic future but so is nationalism and then further hopefully breaking down of national borders into a decentralised mayor/regional–council government system. Canton style like Switzerland. I think we are beginning to see this type of thing play out in the UK where regional government has more power. Spain too has many old boarders that are feeling strained, If Catalunya goes so will País Vasco and probably then the other regions too. Once we can interlink these micro nations with a globalised honest currency, I see a bright future.

The world is suffering prisoners dilemma, where cooperation is more profitable than war.

 

[satoshis_sockpuppet]

Just watched the Trump inauguration. Sounds like globalism is in his sights and protectionism may be around the corner. Usually what follows that is war..:-/

Any historical examples?

The coming wars are going to be the consequence of decades of globalism and multiculturalism.

I guess you talk about something other than traditional war between countries?

There won't be any "big wars" any more, I can't understand how people ignore the existence of nuclear weapons every day. If there was any real war about to start, it wouldn't last an hour.
(Btw I heard very contradictory statements by Trump about the nuclear arsenal. My biggest hope is, that Trump & Putin reboot the nuclear disarmament.)

@albin The cypherpunks have been waiting all their lives for a chance to fail as badly with digital cash as they failed with encrypted email.

 

[Justus Ranvier]

@lunar Humans are both primates and mammals, and that brings biological baggage along with it that we can't just wish away.

The ideology of multiculturalism is that humans are undifferentiated and interchangeable, but that might as well be young earth creationism in terms of how connected it is to reality.

We're more like this:

http://www.petsmart.com/learning-center/fish-care/how-do-i-set-up-my-aquarium-for-multiple-fish/A0086.html

Western governments have spent about half a century using welfare and warfare to mix a bunch of incompatible cultures together and the only thing (barely) keeping a lid on the violence it is the ability to keep each culture sedated with handouts.

That's not going to last forever.
[doublepost=1484944393][/doublepost]If you look around you'll notice signs Americans are mentally gearing up for civil war:

https://storify.com/sphenoid/days-of-rage-pt-5-finale-what-does-it-portend

 

[awemany]

@Justus Ranvier :

Western governments have spent about half a century using welfare and warfare to mix a bunch of incompatible cultures together and the only thing (barely) keeping a lid on the violence it is the ability to keep each culture sedated with handouts.

That's not going to last forever.

Are you talking about the U.S. or Europe, or both?

 

[Justus Ranvier]

@awemany Both.

 

[awemany]

@Justus Ranvier :

For Europe, I can see that there is more 'multiculturalism' in the last couple decades, but my impression was so far that this isn't the case for the U.S., as it is basically just that way since the settlers arrived?

 

[AdrianX]

Every miner should think very hard about this opinion - but stated like a fact - in the Lightning Network white paper:




And ... is it really a good idea to call malleability a bug that needs to be fixed, or is there already some manipulation through language going on and maybe having malleability is a good trade-off in Bitcoin right from the beginning?

Lightning needs a malleability fix to function and to allow off-chain multi-hop channels to work.

But exactly that would also allow an overlay network that becomes more and more decoupled from the Bitcoin network, not unlike the history of banks and gold (eventually no one uses gold anymore and it just sits in cold storage) while also attacking the base layer through usurpation of fees meant to pay for that base layer.

We have payment channels already, and we can form networks out of those, albeit with some counterparty risk.

Isn't that enough off-chain capability for Bitcoin already?

I love that - a "malleability fix" is like having your cat fixed, it's not in the cats best interest to be fixed it's in the owners interest that the cat gets "fixed"

 

[Christoph Bergmann]

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

These Core Trolls never stopp to be a source of amusement.

Here on of them accuses another one to be a r/btc troll because he trolled another pro-core-troll too hard. In the end we learn that this trol, who is so toxic that it is too much even for longterm core-trolls, is employed by - guess whom - no surprise, really no surprise ...

Have fun!


(to get the comedia, you should read the whole thread starting with this comment. It is easy to find and really worth the time)

 

[adamstgbit]

@awemany Both.

We have a lot of multiculturalism here in montreal.
maybe we are just more evolved than americans when it comes to culture...
but we dont judge poeple by color of there skin... we judge them by how they dress.
and skin colors all mix well together, we tend to group in terms of similar fashion choices, not race or religion. from my experience anyway.

me i'm a (tolerant) sexist, self serving, asshole, and i dress like one too. lolz

 

[Justus Ranvier]

@adamstgbit Multiculturalism goes way beyond race.

Even withing the same nominal race, people with opposite political views have measurable differences in their brain:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3092984/

Liberals and conservatives have different family structures and reproductive behaviors. An alien studying our planet would conclude they were looking at different species.
[doublepost=1484963538][/doublepost]

For Europe, I can see that there is more 'multiculturalism' in the last couple decades, but my impression was so far that this isn't the case for the U.S., as it is basically just that way since the settlers arrived?

When the US was settled, there was a lot of empty space so when groups of people had irreconcilable differences with the culture around them they'd move west. (Example: Mormons).

It wasn't until the 20th century that the US ran out of space for that to happen, and only in the second half of the century did the federal government decide it would be a great idea to use government policy to intentionally move people around in an attempt to remove regional differences.

 

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

@awemany

Interesting idea, definitely puts Core on the defensive as is their usual tactic with us. (Good tactic if the argument is legitimate.)

 

[awemany]

It wasn't until the 20th century that the US ran out of space for that to happen, and only in the second half of the century did the federal government decide it would be a great idea to use government policy to intentionally move people around in an attempt to remove regional differences.

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Do you have a couple links to policies/laws that came out of this mindset?

@Zangelbert Bingledack :

Interesting idea, definitely puts Core on the defensive as is their usual tactic with us. (Good tactic if the argument is legitimate.)

I think it is. HTLCs as far as I understand need to reliably refer to TXIDs of older ones for the whole multi-hop scheme to work, and right in the abstract of the LN draft paper (note also: that's the latest that we've got, a draft ...), it is stated:

If Bitcoin transactions can be signed with a new sighash type that
addresses malleability, these transfers may occur between untrusted
parties along the transfer route by contracts which, in the event of un-
cooperative or hostile participants, are enforceable via broadcast over
the bitcoin blockchain in the event of uncooperative or hostile partici-
pants, through a series of decrementing timelocks.

Maybe someone else with a deeper knowledge of the code and current state of transaction art could confirm or deny this. @theZerg, @Tom Zander ?

And, see, I am not even opposed to some fancy experiments with the blockchain because I think it is in general worthwhile when such experiments are done in a controlled manner. But a) we should do that with belt and suspenders, so maybe for example an off-switch for non-malleability that could be activated by minority hash power or maybe even better a time limit after which it would need to be reaffirmed and b) there should be some analysis on the potential effects of such a change - compare also the hoops that Gavin had to jump through for the simple and clean BIP101! - there is nothing as far as I know discussing the potential effects of LN on miner fees.