Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

xhiggy

Active Member
Mar 29, 2016
124
277
"Stooping to the level of the opposition" is in fact the only way to achieve success in the face of malicious opponents.

That's why malicious people work so hard to spread the meme that nobody should do it.
This is a difficult statement to resolve properly. How does one define malicious? Malicious to what aim? Doing one thing for one reason requires completely different standards of judgment when compared to the same thing done for a different reason. The breaching of civility in any worthwhile conflict is inevitable, the only hope we have is to not unnecessarily hurt others, using our best judgement.
 
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Peter Tschipper

Active Member
Jan 8, 2016
254
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@Norway You're on the right track there but a little behind the curve :(...it's already been done. Core has already implemented a rolling bloom filter to make sure we don't request the same transactions twice. You get extra points though for coming up with the idea yourself !

Bloomfilter for every transaction, not just blocks


I got this idea yesterday to optimize normal transaction traffic on a node. It will most likely not work for some fundamental reason that I haven’t understood or a premise I got wrong. It might have been proposed by somebody else before, but I’m not aware of that.


I know the normal traffic on a node is not considered to be a bottle neck issue, but it would still be nice to reduce it.


It’s 100% inspired by Xthin, and I hope @Peter Tschipper would take a look at it and give a comment, but you can all join in to kill the idea. The sooner it’s killed, the less time wasted on a useless idea.


I am/was a programmer, but I have never looked at the bitcoin code. I have never worked on an open source project, and I will not be able to write the code for this idea.


These are two important premises for the idea to work. One or two of them are probably wrong :)

1) A node sends the same transaction to several nodes that allready have received it.

2) A node receives the same transaction several times from different nodes.


The idea is this:

A node first send a part of a hash of the transaction (That’s what’s done in Bloomfilters, right? The length of the part of the hash is long enough to make it statistically pretty unique. I havent thought about collisions yet.)


If the receiving node hasn’t seen this transaction yet, it asks for the full transaction and gets it.


And that’s pretty much it.


Please kill the idea, not me guys :)
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
Pretending you're having a rational debate with civilized people when that's counterfactual is equivalent to a choice to lose.
I think you have a good point, the forced fake "high-road" stuff that we see is just not effective, and frankly comes across as totally disingenuous. As a general moral rule I think it's obvious that one no longer gives benefit-of-the-doubt to a person with a proven track record of malfeasance, and to demand to be treated with such benefit-of-the-doubt is the very first tactic such a bad actor employs.

Very concrete case in point: /r/btc and the constant drama over automatic downvote rate-limiting. The most vicious unconstructive trolls imaginable incessantly line up and complain that they're being "censored" unless explicitly granted special privileges despite their atrocious behavior.
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
just read this on r/btc

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-unlimited-headed-activation/

I can smell the winds of change.

Will it happen? If it does the bitcoin network would have proven that its incentives are highly robust and its nature is in fact truly decentralized with no person or entity having full say over its direction. Investors would probably see that the incentives do actually work, even during the most testing times, thus would place greater trust on the elegance of Nakamoto’s invention.
 

sgbett

Active Member
Aug 25, 2015
216
786
UK
Its occurred to me just now that the market may not be rejecting SegWit but may actually be rejecting "Soft Forks".

This would be a very good thing imho, as it further demonstrates that Nakamoto consensus is all that is needed (and in fact is working fine apparently!)

Sorry if this has already been thought of. I'm a bit slow sometimes ;)
 
your argumentation doesn't take into account that a Hardfork takes the whole networks with it, while a Softfork adds an optional feature. I, for myself, as someone, who votes for a blocksize-increasing hardfork, would have more problems accepting SegWit as a hardfork than as a softfork, because changing the transaction format is a really big change and I'd like to have some kind of "backup" by being able to use my old addresses, my old transactions, my old client. But this is just my personal idea, and I know not everybody here shares it.

Something else about SegWit we did not discuss imo: The "discount" for signatures has the effect, that it favors transactions with many signatures and discriminates transactions with few signatures. So, with SegWit you have incentives to build transactions with many inputs and few output, while currently the incentives are the other way round. Core devs say, that this is good, because the current incentives are "perverse", and with SegWit you will have incentives to build UTXO-reducing transactions. This may be right, and an ever growing UTXO-set is something to worry about, but it doesn't change the fact, that this is a top-down economic policy set by 2-3 guys; and it completely ignores the impact on scaling: it makes transactions big in size (because many inputs / signatures) cheaper than transactions smaller in size (because few inputs, but many outputs). This means that the average size of a transaction will grow, which is not good for scaling.

Core devs argue we should not talk about "size" but about "weight", to take into account the effect on the system's health. But this is a) another attempt of central decision what is good for Bitcoin and what not, and b) it handwaves away the fact that the economic decision about fee incentives favors transactions which need more space on the blockchain, which will further reduce any positive effect SegWit will have on scaling the transaction throughput.
 

sgbett

Active Member
Aug 25, 2015
216
786
UK
Whether SW is a good idea (regardless of fork method) is not for me to say. I'm only considering the consensus mechanism here, and that (hopefully) miners are smart enough to recognise that SF Subversion of it is a Bad Thing.

A HF would allow you to remain on the side of the fork that didn't choose SW. Whether there is any value in that would be decided by the market - of which you are a participant, and can vote with your feet by selling your SW coins!

If the market elects to devalue the SW side of the fork, then we'd just re-org to the pre-segwit chain. We wouldn't be left with having to deal with all of the (now invalid) SW transactions/addresses.

HF is cleaner IMOH and I think the miners know that, hence my summation.

With regards SW being an optional feature I'd say if it activates at 95% then any 'option' has been removed. You are being told upgrade, or you won't actually be a full node anymore. That you still think you are is a technicality designed to justify the whole messy business of trying to avoid giving users the choice. Soft Forks are giving miners all the power, whilst removing any incentive mechanism by which users (market) can keep them in check.
 

Dusty

Active Member
Mar 14, 2016
362
1,172
[...]would have more problems accepting SegWit as a hardfork than as a softfork, because changing the transaction format is a really big change
Of course it is, but you do not need to invalidate old tx format, just add a new one: the old one may coexists.

[...] This means that the average size of a transaction will grow, which is not good for scaling.
I'm not so sure of that: if it's incentivated to reduce the UTXO, in the long run every tx would be smaller since there would be less inputs to choose from.
Also, the size of the whole blockchain is not so important since most of it can be pruned, while it's the UTXO size is most important one, and that set must be all inside RAM to mine efficiently.
 

adamstgbit

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2016
1,206
2,650
Its occurred to me just now that the market may not be rejecting SegWit but may actually be rejecting "Soft Forks".
for me personally this is accurate.

and when you look at how SW-SF leverages the "softness" to add things like sig discounts, the SF looks evil.

Core devs argue we should not talk about "size" but about "weight"
core doesn't get it.... their silly attempt at playing with the TX fee is truly BAD.

TX have a real "cost / byte" and big part of that cost comes from including TX with complex sig's which add to the blocks total validation time.

minners cannot mine at a lose, so their discount will only shift these cost onto the TX data part.

Its as if the government were to say "all shoes must be price 75% below the cost of production" and the companies increased the price of shoe laces and sold them separately to stay profitable. bad analogy ...
 
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AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
Soft Forks are giving miners all the power, whilst removing any incentive mechanism by which users (market) can keep them in check
It's this fact that goes against the idea that it's market forces that are holding segwit back.

It's the miners saving bitcoin and for good reason. About 60% of nodes are segwit ready many of those nodes may be shells. The way a free market would manage soft forks and prevent miners from running any soft fork is by defining the basic bitcoin protocol and having many implementations.

At the moment BS/Core have the proverbial power of the One Ring to rule them all, bitcoin control is effectively centralized with the idea that we have a reference client.

If a reference client idea were possible it should be the most conservative and least experimental implementation out there. Any soft fork tech that requires nodes to update should be competitive and solicit adoption on merit not by bundling it in as a progressive update of the reference client.
 

79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
while those folks mingle in davos, basking in their privilege, dreaming up ways to capitalize on "blockchain" and strategies to improve tame bitcoin, hash by hash, transaction by transaction, LOC by LOC, the network gets stronger, more resilient, more mature, more sophisticated than any economic system the world has seen before.
 
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albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
I'm not so sure of that: if it's incentivated to reduce the UTXO, in the long run every tx would be smaller since there would be less inputs to choose from.
Also, the size of the whole blockchain is not so important since most of it can be pruned, while it's the UTXO size is most important one, and that set must be all inside RAM to mine efficiently.
To be honest I'm not convinced it will do anything to reduce utxo whatsoever, apart from maybe some outlier cases where people are unnecessarily creating extra outputs for no good reason. The reason is because the sender of a tx doesn't just arbitrarily decide what inputs he has and what outputs he needs to create to send money to the correct parties, and while there are behaviors that maybe could slightly streamline these figures, the pricing difference between inputs and outputs doesn't inherently create substitution, because they are literally the most logically extreme example of goods with no substitution effect. Unless there is some utility left on the table to consolidate outputs, eventually the bottleneck becomes the cost of outputs anyway, and the utxo-shrinking effect is no different than just higher costs across the board deterring usage.