Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
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Admittedly this likely falls in to the everything-is-"good-for-Bitcoin" cliche, but those China developments might be some of the most bullish long-term developments since the US FinCEN guidance in 2013. It suggests to me that China was taking a wait-and-see approach, of course rightly skeptical that maybe Bitcoin will just die out after the crazy 2013 markets, and now that we're at minimum producing a double-top (if not eventually breaking through) on the ATH, they're tacitly admitting this Bitcoin thing isn't going away. Obviously not endorsing regulation in and of itself, but the fact that they're finally bothering to do so is telling about the perceived utility of Bitcoin moving forward.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585

Very interesting. This means we really can have >1MB without ever doing a hard fork (and without weird softfork hacks like extension blocks). In a sense - because "hard fork" actually has several definitions, ranging from merely running any node with a looser ruleset to a full-blown ETH/ETC-style economic split.

Note the semantics here: anyone upgrading to BU and setting it to accept >1MB is a hard fork by the first definition already, even before any >1MB block is ever mined. But this can't be Core's definition of a hard fork, because they keep saying hard forks can't be allowed to happen, but under this definition it already has happened and continues to happen daily.

Core supporters would likely counter by saying, "You are not running Bitcoin, so it is not a hard fork in Bitcoin." But by that logic, a "hard fork in Bitcoin" is completely impossible. It can by definition never happen, as any supposed hard fork at all would automatically not be Bitcoin. Then it would make even less sense for Core to rail against hard forks.

Therefore, by Core's definition we have not hard forked yet. Well, then as @Peter R said in the reddit comment, we can indeed go to >1MB blocks without ever doing a hard fork. The way to do that is have everyone upgrade to BU and set their clients to accept >1MB blocks. Then someone simply needs to mine a >1MB block. Voila! A simple switch to >1MB and never had a hard fork!

Ironically, Core logic that we must never hardfork leads unavoidably to everyone adopting BU (or similar) in order to increase the blocksize without hardforking.
 
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awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
[...] He even mentioned Xthin *before* Compact Blocks, which is sure to ruffle plenty of Core sycophant feathers since "everyone knows Greg invented it."
Didn't they hire some PR expert recently?

Maybe this is the result of that, some small things that really do nothing and don't help but just acknowledge BU and the rest (majority) of the ecosystem as some kind of bait to pull people over and a move for themselves to get to a position where they are seen as and will argue to be 'reasonable'.

Call me incredibly cynical, but with Blockstream and everything that touches it, adversarial thinking is absolutely necessary.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
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@awemany Well it can't both be the case that they win by censoring all positive mention of alternatives and they win by some positive mention of alternatives. I think it's progress. They have been forced to acknowledge BU as a force. Yes, in order to not look too unreasonable, but it is a capitulation nonetheless. (They can always be expected to play their cards optimally. Our job is to ensure that optimal play forces them to keep giving ground.)
[doublepost=1484064325][/doublepost]Here's an idea for visualizing the Core equivocation I mentioned above.



The inescapable conclusion: either (a) Bitcoin has already hard forked and is forking every time someone new runs BU/Classic with >1MB acceptance, or (b) it is possible to increase Bitcoin's blocksize cap straightforwardly without a hardfork.

Core's fear of hardforks ironically paints Core itself as the deficient implementation, because it is only Core that requires a hardfork to increase the cap. BU and Classic don't - unless you agree that the network is already hardforking daily without issue.
[doublepost=1484065178,1484064116][/doublepost]I should add that the reason many people haven't appreciated this point before is that they fail to notice that changing the rules for acceptance doesn't automatically change the blockchain at all. People have been equivocating between speaking about changes to the node rules and changes to the actual blockchain. They have in particular been equivocating between nodes accepting a 2MB block and miners actually mining a 2MB that those nodes accept. Since the two don't have to happen at the same time, a hard fork can be avoided (or has already happened and is happening every day, depending on which definition you choose).

So the no-hard-fork path is:

1) Get all economically important nodes and miners to accept bigger blocks (at no point in this process does a hard fork occur, except by the definition wherein a hard fork has already happened and is happening daily)

2) Only then start mining bigger blocks (not a hard fork from the perspective of the economic majority)
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
@Zangelbert Bingledack : Fair point. I think the next move they might want to make at some point is that of 'bargaining'.

Now, I have argued before that they should be bargaining and IMO it would have been the honest move by Core, if they would have done this 2 years ago.

But given all what went down in the meantime, it is hard to get too excited to be 'bargaining' with a proven to be highly manipulative entity and bunch of folks. Like being betrayed in a shell game ...

What I am worried about is a needless softening of our stance to 'finally get to some kind of blocksize agreement'. I foresee that if Blockstream starts to smell that a proper miner revolt is coming (and it is), that's the way they're trying to approach this.

It is the 'psychological delta' here. I fear that Greg and Adam will be seen by some as suddenly nice and forthcoming if they just go back from their manipulation and underhanded tactics to just 'tough guys with an admitted special interest (as a rephrasing of the conflict of interest) for their company'.

Of course, them backpedaling and showing other first signs of being weak can on the other hand also be quite a motivation and drive for people on our side.

I think we fare best if we consequently stick to our issues (dev decentralization and market based blocksize limit) and fight this all to the very end.
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
Just a tangent here.

You know what's goddamn hilarious? If you get banned from /r/bitcoin you can still vote!

So where is the logic of banning an account for "brigading", unless they're going to the admins to get the account removed altogether??
 

79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
What I am worried about is a needless softening of our stance to 'finally get to some kind of blocksize agreement'. I foresee that if Blockstream starts to smell that a proper miner revolt is coming (and it is), that's the way they're trying to approach this.

[snip]

I think we fare best if we consequently stick to our issues (dev decentralization and market based blocksize limit) and fight this all to the very end.
1. by far the main danger is developer centralization and the resulting threat of co-optation of the system (what the people at e.g. bitfury seem not to have yet understood,).

2. the blocksize limit is a stopgag measure that will be blown asunder by the market, sooner or later.

3. the present objective and opportunity is for the stopgag to be removed while simultaneously dismantling the danger.

those are clear. the last point is much more speculative:

4. satoshi foresaw the threat in 1. and paved the way for its solution via 2. and 3.
 
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AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
I'm also posting on a tangent here I'm increasingly frustrated by all this attention on the fees.

One just needs too extrapolate fee growth in a liner chart and pick the point when most users abandon bitcoin, that's how the fee market ends.

Now and for the practical future fees are largely irrelevant to scaling bitcoin, it's about increasing the network of users. I agree some mandatory fee is necessary in the case the network is being abused with spam but it need not be greater than $0.005 for fresh transactions to be effective.

Bitcoin has an inflation subsidy given to miners to lubricate cooperation between network participants thus creating and giving the bitcoin network value.

The subsidy comes from the inflation of the money supply paid by all those invested in bitcoin's success, it is a tax that subsidized security and writing of transactions to the blockchain.

At the moment the cost per transaction is over 96% subsidized. bother sides of this debate are focusing on the fee per transaction as if it's too cheep or too expensive, that's not an issue today or in the practical future, nor is the networks under threat of huge blocks that can only be processed by data-centers.

Looking at manipulating fees now is ludicrous and incredibly shortsighted, especially using fee pressure, created by limited block space, to justify a fee market.

How can any rational person look at <4% of the bitcoin transaction cost and come to a definitive conclusion about what the total fee should be. Whatever method is used it will be wrong given the subsidy is decreasing by 50% every 4 years. An instant 50% increase in cost is sure to disrupt an existing supply and demand equilibrium in a free market no mater how predictable it is due to limited knowledge of every market participants future fee tolerance.

If fees were an order of magnitude cheaper or more expensive they would still be largely irrelevant and most notably distorted by the subsidy. How can a free market determine a value for a service when the service is >96% subsidized.

BS/Core Fundamentalists are being incredibly irresponsible by enforcing a fee market by limiting block size now and big block proponents are being naive complaining about the transaction cost when the fee paid is +-<4% of the subsidized cost.

It's only with economies of scale in transaction volume and a resulting increase in block size that we can maintain the existing level of security as the reward drops.
 
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satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
Well that fits just fucking perfectly.

99 % of core's propaganda is psychological projection and the alleged altcoin involvements by big blockers are just that. I guess one should make an infograph, how many core devs are also invested in altcoins versus Unlimited and Classic devs.

Fuck that. Jihan can't be the only one who recognized that.
 

lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
4,290
Remember when NorthCore started sorting individual threads on controversial?

I've recently started using a handy hack. If you want to high grade and get the most interesting topics, it's best to sort the whole subreddit on controversial :LOL:

I've found a few interesting, buried topics this way.
 

Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
223
1,453
Borrowing here from some of my recent reddit comments:

"Hard fork" and "Soft fork" definitions

I assume that when most people talk about a "hard fork" they're referring to the situation where a majority of the hash power loosens the rule set they're using to determine "validity." (And arguably the fork only really occurs when the first block that would have been invalid under the old rules is mined and successfully avoids orphaning.) If only a minority of the hash power begins to apply a strictly looser rule set, nothing happens -- except that those in the minority may periodically have their blocks orphaned and/or temporarily follow doomed-to-be-orphaned chains.

Similarly I think when most people talk about a "soft fork," they're referring to the situation where a majority of the hash power begins to enforce a stricter rule set. This "prevents a chain split" by essentially 51% attacking those who don't upgrade. Of course, making a protocol change as a soft fork can't really guarantee that the chain won't split. Because if the change is sufficiently controversial, the disgruntled minority may attempt to organize a counter fork to avoid being swept along with the rule change. A soft fork just increases the coordination cost of resisting an unpopular or controversial change. (And here again, I'll note that a "51% attack" is just another name for a malicious soft fork.)

It's also worth noting that if only a minority of the hash power "soft forks" (begins to enforce a stricter rule set), that will cause a chain split. So the idea that "hard forks risk chain splits" seems misguided -- and indeed essentially backwards. Chain splits are always ultimately caused by the willingness of some individuals to either begin enforcing, or continue enforcing, a "validity" rule -- even when doing so means that they will be following a chain other than the "longest" / most-proof-of-work chain.

As an aside, this is why it's at least somewhat imprecise to talk about a "minority hard fork" (although I've been guilty of this myself in the past). So for example, if we wanted to create a "big block" fork now without a hash power majority, we would need to do so via a combination hard and soft fork (and it would be the "soft fork" elements of that fork that would actually be responsible for separating us from the other chain).

If and when a "fork" has occurred is fundamentally indeterminate
This is because the "current consensus rules" are fundamentally indeterminate. You only really know for sure what software you're running. It's technically possible (although we imagine, extremely unlikely) that everyone else on the network is actually running a modified Core client (or BU or Classic) that would accept > 1-MB blocks today. Related to this point is that the idea that the difference between "artificial" and "natural" orphaning risk is indeterminate. When one of your blocks is orphaned by the rest of the network, you can never be entirely sure why that occurred. Now obviously right now this probably seems like a really theoretical or academic point. After all, a large majority of the hash power is advertising that they're running some version of Core and so we're all probably 99.99% confident that they are in fact running an unmodified version that would reject any block larger than >1 MB. But that doesn't mean that this fundamental indeterminacy won't be more palpable in the future.

Three levels of "validity" rule enforcement

It seems to me that there are arguably three levels of commitment to validity rule enforcement:

Provisional enforcement of a rule in an effort to stay with the current hash power majority

You may choose to enforce a validity rule in an effort to "stay with the herd," i.e., because you believe that the hash power majority is currently enforcing the rule in question. This is what BU enables with respect to block size. When you run BU with an EB setting of X and a reasonable, finite AD setting, you're not really treating "excessive" blocks as "invalid." Your enforcement of that limit is expressly provisional. You're basically saying: "I'll defer acceptance of blocks larger than X because I predict that's what the network as a whole will do at this time. But I could be wrong, and I'll ultimately follow whichever chain proves to be the longest. I'm certainly not willing to permanently fork myself off onto a minority chain over block size. That would be crazy."

Forcing a market referendum when the hash power majority is dangerously wrong
In rare cases, you may also choose to enforce a validity rule even when you're confident that doing so puts you in the current hash power minority. This could be a scenario where you believe that the herd's mining majority has "gone over a cliff." You still want to "stay with the herd" (remain on the chain that will ultimately be economically dominant) but you need to enable the larger herd (i.e., the market / all investors as a class) to help you rein in the errant miners. You can do this by forcing a chain split and allowing coins on the two chains to be traded against one another. If you're correct and the market values your chain more than the higher hash power chain, it will eventually become the longest chain (because hash power ultimately follows price).

Servicing a separate niche in the case where a persistent split makes sense
Finally it's possible that you may be willing to enforce a validity rule even when you know that doing so will put you on the minority chain and that the minority chain is likely to remain the minority chain. This may be rational if you believe that the minority chain will serve a viable niche that cannot be satisfied by the majority chain.
 
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