Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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One more request: Don't we usually frown upon ascribing minor price movements to some news items?

It seems to me the recent bump (which has since not gone very far) in Bitcoin price was noticeably correlated with selling of Monero. I wouldn't be surprised if some folks had significant altcoin holdings ready to deploy to strengthen Bitcoin when they felt threatened by a rising alt.
 

Justus Ranvier

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
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This new pool giving bigblockers hope is just a stalling tactic to prevent a spinoff with a new ASIC resistant proof of work.
Changing the PoW is one of those tactics that should always be on the table and available for immediate deployment, but shouldn't ever be plan A.

Nuclear weapons are a good analogy. The fact that it's possible is the best way to ensure that it's never needed.
 

Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
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@Justus Ranvier

Yeah, that's exactly how I think about a PoW-changing fork. I was also thinking it might be useful to sort of "map out" all the possible paths by which we could conceivably achieve our goal of larger blocks. (It probably presents better as some kind of flow diagram, but I'm graphically-challenged.)

You can try to fork with a majority of the hash power on board or without a majority of the hash power on board.

If you're forking without a majority of the hash power on board, you can try to fork with a minority of the hash power using the existing PoW algorithm, or you can use a fork that changes the PoW algorithm.

Obviously, the ideal scenario would be a non-PoW-changing fork that has (i.e., starts out with) a majority of the hash power on board -- because that provides the strongest Schelling point for investors and thus gives your fork the best chance of success.

But obviously as we've seen, getting the support of a majority of hash power is difficult. Ok, but how could it be done?

Well, "we" (preferably referring here to a well-organized, well-funded group of stakeholders) could bring new fork-supporting hash power online (i.e. newly manufactured mining hardware) and/or "convert" the existing hash power.

How could you convert the existing hash power?

You can buy the hardware outright from existing miners and then use it to support a fork, and/or convince existing miners to switch which implementation they're running.

How could you convince existing miners to switch implementations? You can do one or more of the following: "bribe" them, "threaten" them, and/or try to convince them switching is already in their best interests.

"Bribes" could take the form of either the proverbial briefcases full of bitcoin offered to targeted pool operators (a little unsavory perhaps, but desperate times) or, more-transparently, a "forking bounty".

The "threat" I envision would be the threat that, if the miners don't allow meaningful on-chain scaling in a timely manner, we (and again, referring here to a well-funded / organized group of stakeholders) will throw our collective economic weight behind a PoW-changing fork, thereby threatening to significantly undermine the value of miners' hardware investment.

Finally, we could appeal to their reason by seeking to understand and effectively address their specific concerns, e.g., explaining why "hard forks" aren't dangerous, the principles behind BU's emergent consensus, why on-chain scaling actually promotes "decentralization," demonstrating that there now exists viable / competent / well-funded alternatives to the Core team (BU's recently received donation is really helpful in that regard). I think a well-organized face-to-face scaling conference with the major miners would be helpful here.
 

solex

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Aug 22, 2015
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Norway

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Sep 29, 2015
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Lol, that Zerohedge analysis is crazy. And look at the chart with brexit. As if brexit would cause bitcoin to take a dive.

Reading /r/bitcoin, it looks like they invented two spins to explain the USD 30 move. G20 and "it's technical reasons because math & charts".

It's like the small block spin doctors were having their weekend off, but had to rush to work, a few hours too late, because of the dangerous ViaBTC + price move situation :)
 

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
380
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Since month you say always the same, day by day: Big Blockers need to stop wanting bigger blocks to get bigger blocks.
I have never said that. You need to stop campaigning to implement bigger blocks without consensus. You should join me in campaigning for bigger blocks conditional on strong consensus across the community.
 

xhiggy

Active Member
Mar 29, 2016
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@jonny1000

Right, but the point is to also remove a bad influence (greg maxwell) there is no way this can be done with strong consensus in a timely manner.
 
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jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
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xhiggy said:
Right, but the point is to also remove a bad influence (greg maxwell) there is no way this can be done with strong consensus in a timely manner.
Remove him from what? He has no position as far as I know. The only thing we need strong consensus for is a hardfork. We do not need any type of consensus to "remove" Greg Maxwell from anything or to change the whole development team. Just run another compatible client written by different people and you have a new development team, its easy. The protocol rules will remain unchanged as the rules are very robust and hard to change, by design.
 

AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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I have never said that. You need to stop campaigning to implement bigger blocks without consensus. You should join me in campaigning for bigger blocks conditional on strong consensus across the community.
"need" that's a strong word. So who's allowed to campaign those miners?

Obviously you and I are not part of that consensus that decides bigger blocks.

So how do you propose campaigning for bigger blocks conditional on strong consensus across the community if we "need" to stop campaigning to implement bigger blocks without consensus?

Should we ask, to be invited to the backdoor meeting where Blockstream "campaign" miners to support their plan to prevent bigger blocks, on reddit?
[doublepost=1473051582][/doublepost]
Just run another compatible client written by different people and you have a new development team, its easy. The protocol rules will remain unchanged as the rules are very robust and hard to change, by design
This is not true. Just look at segwit. If segwit soft fork is activated all nodes that don't hard fork to the segwit chain will become zombie nodes that provided a fraction of the services they provided now.

The protocol rules will chang and those nodes will stop relaying and validating transactions.
 

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
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”AdrianX” said:
So how do you propose campaigning for bigger blocks conditional on strong consensus across the community if we "need" to stop campaigning to implement bigger blocks without consensus?

There is loads of stuff one could do:


* Comments supporting bigger blocks on forums, while not campaigning for activation before consensus


* Campaign for miners to include flags in their blocks that support bigger blocks, in a non binding way.


* When a proposal for bigger blocks like BIP100 gets to 65% miner support in a nonbinding vote, begin to rally around that idea


* Release full nodes that flag support for larger blocks in a non binding way


* Put forward proposals on how to do a hardfork for bigger blocks in a safe way. E.g. 95% miner threshold, soft-hardfork, 1 year grace period


* When problems are put forward about larger blocks, respond to those issues in a mature, respectful and open minded manner. Address the concerns raised and recognize the minority rights of the people to veto the large block proposal if they are still unhappy you have not addressed all their concerns. Do not insult those raising objections


* Arrange meetings, conferences and other events


* Create a larger block testnet


* Do peer reviewed studies on larger blocks



”AdrianX” said:
Should we ask, to be invited to the backdoor meeting where Blockstream "campaign" miners to support their plan to prevent bigger blocks, on reddit?

There have been many meetings and discussions on both sides. For example the August 2015 industry letter supporting 8GB blocks resulting from secret closed door discussions


”AdrianX” said:
This is not true. Just look at segwit. If segwit soft fork is activated all nodes that don't hard fork to the segwit chain will become zombie nodes that provided a fraction of the services they provided now.

If a segwit softfork occurs, new blocks will be valid under the old rules. This means new transactions are full valid under the old rules and verified just as before. The old nodes still check the input and outputs. The person who receives a transaction has chosen not to have the signature verified by old nodes when they redeem the funds. That is within the rights of the receiver. Nobody loses security, except those who choose to upgrade to Segwit.
 

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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Nobody loses security, except those who choose to upgrade to Segwit.
If SegWit is going to lose me security, then I certainly wouldn't choose to upgrade to it!

What has me flummoxed is that if it's a typo, and @jonny1000 meant to write "except those who choose not to upgrade to SegWit", then that's what we've been saying all along - so in that case @jonny1000 would be agreeing with us!