Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
"Small blockers" are patient and happy to wait it out (remember everyone wants larger blocks, there is just a different philosophy with respect on how to hardfork).
Everyone, except your idols from r/NorthKore
(removed, removed, deleted, removed, removed ...).
"Supported by evidence..." (!)

Jonny, we are not stupid. You can't fool us.


I hope this illustrates how important it is too many people to have consensus before hardforks and that it will take a lot to get rid of us.
Yes. Organized Violence is difficult to get rid of. In North Korea as well as in Bitcoin.org and r/NorthKore Land (aka r/bitcoin). But since you can't fool all of the people all of the time, sooner or later the divorce of the representatives of the two ideologies (freedom vs. fascism) will happen.
 
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go1111111

Active Member
Many small block people figured the large blockers would eventually lose patience and stop the attacks, after this we can increase the blocksize limit with consensus.
Can you point to some other small blockers who want to HF once the "attacks" stop? Or point to other smaller blockers who have written that they support a HF and are only stalling to protest against the folks on /r/btc?
[doublepost=1472627305,1472626359][/doublepost]
Nothing terribly new here but I think these comments provide a nice distillation of some of my thoughts on the problems with soft forks as a governance mechanism.
You seem to have a gift for clearly conveying the pro-fork philosophy. Have you considered taking the time to lay out the pro-fork case in a thorough and accessible way via a Mike Hearn-style Medium post? There's a lot of great content from both you and Zanglebert buried in reddit comment threads and on this forum. If someone who didn't understand the glory of forks came to me for enlightenment though, I don't know of a good place to send him other than telling him to read a bunch of you and Zanglebert's forum comments. Medium has the nice benefits of having its own distribution system, plus twitter people seem more likely to share things on that platform.
 

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
380
101
go1111111 said:
Can you point to some other small blockers who want to HF once the "attacks" stop?
The Core lead maintainer told me the following after I pushed for a compromise 4MB blocksize limit proposal:

Core lead maintainer on 21 June 2015 said:
implementing another solution will just create a third fork, and make the "fork war" more complex.
go1111111 said:
Or point to other smaller blockers who have written that they support a HF and are only stalling to protest against the folks on /r/btc?
You make it sound as if the small block side are being childish or silly by saying its a "protest against the folks on /r/btc". I think one of the causes of the animosity is that large blockers see this issue in political, ideological or principled terms and think it terms of what people will be thinking and how they should ethically act. The small blocker side are mostly looking at it from a practical point of view, on what will actually happen based on the actual behavior of nodes. The refusal of the Core developers to compromise and implement another hardfork during the "attack" is based on practical grounds, not some childish or ideological reason.

I do not really mind the comments on /r/btc that much. However, some miners are still flagging support for BIP109, which is still preventing Core from coming forward with a compromise hardfork proposal, in my view. Support for Classic is still around 4% or 5% from miners, which demonstrates we are in a highly contentious and risky environment and therefore it is probably too risky to split the miners into three groups. (You may respond to this by saying, "no no, do not be stupid, as soon as Core compromises Classic support will fall to near zero!!". This is thinking in human or ideological terms about how people may want to act, many small blockers think more practically in terms of the actual behavior implemented in Classic mining and non mining nodes.)

Most of the above was true before the ETH/ETC event in my view, however the situation may have changed a bit since then.
 
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freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
@jonny1000 : You quote @go1111111 's question, and then fail to answer it.
Continuing the proud Core tradition of non-delivery, I suppose?

I find it telling that you contrast "practical" small blockers with those who desire to act on principled, ethical terms. That might be practically (!) the largest Freudian slip I've seen.

It's sad but not surprising to see that the Core maintainer had already entered a "fork war" bunker mentality in mid 2015. Yet I can't help but wonder how it is that they fail to see the value of compromise, but perhaps they like creating self-fulfilling prophecies, as someone recently pointed out. I think it might be a developer thing too, trying to bend reality to our wishes, oftentimes not realizing where we overstepped the line in our own ambitions. After all, it's possible to make a computer do what you tell it, it's easy to mistakenly infer that the rest of the world can and should be brought to heel in similar manner.
 

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
380
101
freetrader said:
It's sad but not surprising to see that the Core maintainer had already entered a "fork war" bunker mentality in mid 2015.
Just to be clear, the phrase "fork war" was mine, the maintainer was quoting me. (hence the quotes)
 

Justus Ranvier

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
875
3,746
Let's pretend @jonny1000 was being honest for a moment.

Q: What do people who do not want a hard fork need to do in order to avoid participating in it:
A: Absolutely nothing.

Their clients will never recognize the hard fork rules, so what other people affects them in no way whatsoever.

Q: What possible basis could they have for opposing a hard fork then?
A: They want to control what protocol rules you and the people who want to transact with you are allowed to use.

Oops, I lied. It's not possible to pretend that he's being honest, not even for a moment.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
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It will take a lot to get rid of the people who do not want a hardfork
So those opposed to HF's will continue to harass those who wish to freely exercise their rights to fork the software and ledger?

Bear in mind that "getting rid of people" is not at all an aim of big block hardfork, it is to upgrade the system, so I think you are spreading false information about the intentions of such a fork.

If small blockers accept big blocks, they are just as welcome to use a big block chain as anyone else on the planet. Otherwise, they will be left peacably to carry on on their 1MB small block / settlement chain.

However, if they continue to think that they have to harass the rest of us with their delusions of enslaving everyone under the guise of "consensus", they will soon realize the extent of their folly.
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
You know guys, there is the option to ignore users.. Not reading the same lies or idiocy (I'm still not sure whether he is capable of lying) over and over again helps your sanity. And he gets 5-10 answers for every pop up he does here.

One thing is without question: Core will collapse sooner or later. You can't uphold this arrogance and idiocy forever.
And one thing Jihan said is right: There is no compromise. And there won't be. It's an absolute waste of time to engage with core devs and core supporters, they have made their position clear.

Fork or use altcoins, there is no third way.

Hey and I just saw, Sirer reads the btcfork tweets. :)

And I like, that he is using pretty clear language:
 

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
380
101
So those opposed to HF's will continue to harass those who wish to freely exercise their rights to fork the software and ledger?
No, I hope any harassment does not occur nor would it be effective. You are of course totally free to fork the software or create a new ledger, like I have said on many occasions on this forum.

If some people try to create a piece of software, which I consider to be destructive to Bitcoin if miners run it, (like Bitcoin Classic, because it creates a hardfork while giving the non forked chain a huge asymmetric advantage, such that the hardfork is likely to fail, resulting in effective network downtime and loss of funds, unnecessarily damaging the reputation of the system for nothing), then I will try to politely educate network participants about the flaws I see in the potentially destructive fork and oppose the hardfork (while still recognizing everyones moral right to run whatever software they want). The tactics used to try to persuade people not to run Bitcoin Classic are almost identical to the tactics used by those who are campaigning for people to run Bitcoin Classic. e.g. Industry letter agreeing to run XT compatible systems compared to "roundtable consensus" agreeing to run Core compatible systems. You guys are free to try and persuade people not to run Bitcoin Core but Classic and I am free to try and persuade people not to run Bitcoin Classic but run Core compatible clients. What is wrong with that? What is the difference in trying to persuade people to run a client?

Below are the feelings and messages I have towards the people trying to persuade others to run Bitcoin Classic:
  • I respect you,
  • I think you represent a real, important and significant part of the community,
  • I think you are intelligent,
  • I think you are honest,
  • I think you are authentic,
  • I recognize and respect your freedom to do it, and
  • in a friendly sort of way, I wish you good luck and all the best
It is just that I think you may be wrong. Please try to be a bit more open minded and respect my right to try to persuade others to run Core compatible systems.


To repeat again, as I have done many times on the forum:
  • I want a larger block size limit
  • I support a hardfork to increase the blocksize limit, just done in a safe way, unlike Bitcoin Classic
  • I recognize everyones right to run whatever software they like, I am just trying to inform people politely in a non harassing way, of the unnecessary and dangerous problems I see with the Classic activation methodology


Bear in mind that "getting rid of people" is not at all an aim of big block hardfork, it is to upgrade the system, so I think you are spreading false information about the intentions of such a fork.

I agree, large blockers do not all necessarily want to get rid of people. I was responding to a specific question. "Get rid of" was not my phrase:

What's it going to take to get rid of you? Garlic? Silver bullet? Holy water?
 
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Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
223
1,453
You seem to have a gift for clearly conveying the pro-fork philosophy. Have you considered taking the time to lay out the pro-fork case in a thorough and accessible way via a Mike Hearn-style Medium post? There's a lot of great content from both you and Zanglebert buried in reddit comment threads and on this forum. If someone who didn't understand the glory of forks came to me for enlightenment though, I don't know of a good place to send him other than telling him to read a bunch of you and Zanglebert's forum comments. Medium has the nice benefits of having its own distribution system, plus twitter people seem more likely to share things on that platform.
Thanks, man! Yeah, I actually have considered trying to do a more comprehensive post for publication somewhere. But I'm pretty lazy and that would feel like work whereas me posting here is usually a reliable indicator that I'm avoiding work. (Oh, how I wish I were joking.) But seriously, I'm pretty swamped right now so... I nominate @Zangelbert Bingledack to do it! And by the way, anyone is always free to use anything I've written about Bitcoin however they like if anyone else wants to work on putting something together.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
I think a mistake the "large blocker" side has made is underestimating the determination of the "small blocker" side.
This is not in small part to lies, dissembling and stringing along from the small block leadership. 20MB is too big? 8MB is too big? We need to make sure there's an ample switch-over period? No, they had no fucking intention of ever compromising at all. Trolls. And cowards.
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
Below are the feelings and messages I have towards the people trying to persuade others to run Bitcoin Classic:
  • I respect you,
  • I think you represent a real, important and significant part of the community,
  • I think you are intelligent,
  • I think you are honest,
  • I think you are authentic,
  • I recognize and respect your freedom to do it, and
  • in a friendly sort of way, I wish you good luck and all the best
It is just that I think you may be wrong. Please try to be a bit more open minded and respect my right to try to persuade others to run Core compatible systems.
You don't get to just decide that this is how people are supposed to perceive you. You earn the trust of people in these claims by your behavior.

It's not realistic to expect that you can run around like an obnoxious condescending disingenuous prick, then just say this to gaslight your victims into compliance.
 

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
Below are the feelings and messages I have towards the people trying to persuade others to run Bitcoin Classic:
  • I respect you,
  • I think you represent a real, important and significant part of the community,
  • I think you are intelligent,
  • I think you are honest,
  • I think you are authentic,
  • I recognize and respect your freedom to do it, and
  • in a friendly sort of way, I wish you good luck and all the best
It is just that I think you may be wrong. Please try to be a bit more open minded and respect my right to try to persuade others to run Core compatible systems.
You are playing nice while promoting a totalitarian mafia. That doesn't fit together.
I can't trust such contradictory behavior.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
This whole pre-fork, post-fork thing sounds too complicated. We can assume no cooperation from core. Let's just go ahead and fork.

I don't care if forked coins start out at 100th the price of Core coins. If we have the right idea, the price will adjust appropriately.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
The Core lead maintainer told me the following after I pushed for a compromise 4MB blocksize limit proposal:
Heh, yeah, they'll do that. The check's in the post too.
[doublepost=1472703940][/doublepost]
Yet I can't help but wonder how it is that they fail to see the value of compromise,
I don't find so much problem with the lack of willingness to compromise as that they were signalling that they *were* willing to compromise. This implies a real lack of sincerity and integrity.

The whole "We'll ship a bunch of our guys out to make fancy promises to the Chinese but when it comes down to the wire, they're a bunch of dipshits" is all part of this.
 
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Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
223
1,453
I was trying to think of analogies for hard vs. soft forks. I've been a fan for a while of analogizing the Bitcoin network to a traveling herd of animals where every individual could go wherever the hell they want, but where it's obviously in every one's interests to stick together because of the strong network effect. We can think of the direction the herd is currently traveling in as the "current protocol." And the current direction is almost always the strongest Schelling point for future travel.

A hard fork is like a big group of the animals beginning to head off in a different direction. Hard forks are thus transparent and explicit. They present you with a clear choice: do I want to keep going on the original path or do I want to stick with the majority? They make it easier for people who feel strongly about NOT forking to coordinate their "resistance" to a fork, because they don't have to do anything to not fork and because the status quo is such a powerful Schelling point. But that still doesn't mean that hard forks make it easy for a meaningful persistent chain split to occur because of how powerful the network effect is. The more individuals that "lose their nerve" and defect from the smaller herd, the more incentive there is to defect, creating an incredibly powerful positive feedback loop toward convergence on the new direction.

So all of that is more or less stuff I've said before. Ok, so now what is a soft fork in this analogy? Well, first let's talk about an "ordinary" soft fork, where the functional nature of the desired change actually lends itself to implementation via a soft fork. A soft fork involves adding new rules / making the existing rules more strict. So an ordinary soft fork is not exactly like changing direction; it's more like narrowing the path. If we're imagining a soft fork to reduce the block size limit from 1MB to 500kb, a "natural" soft fork like that is sort of like a majority of the animals running ahead and placing boulders across the "500kb - 1MB" portions of the path to block them off. Because of their nature, soft forks like this aren't automatically transparent to users, and thus you can imagine scenarios where a majority of the hashpower deploys a soft fork in secret. So if you don't know about the new rules being enforced by a majority of the hashpower, you might try to walk down that part of the path (i.e., mine a >500kb block) and what will happen is you'll encounter a boulder blocking your way (i.e., your block will be orphaned). And at first you might chalk it up to bad luck. But if every time to you try to access that part of the path you encounter a boulder, you're going to start to suspect that it's by design. Soft forks are harder for an unhappy minority to resist because they basically "automatically" funnel everyone onto the narrower path. If you don't want to go along, you have to affirmatively coordinate your own change in direction with other people who are similarly dissatisfied with the new development.

Finally, what about an "unnatural" soft fork? Well, there's the idea that any functional change in behavior that can be done with a hard fork can also be done with a more-convoluted / "hacky" soft fork. So what's the analogy here? How does the herd change direction without changing direction? They build a Stargate.



Now I don't know if any of you guys have ever tried to build a Stargate before. But it's tricky. It's certainly going to be a more complex undertaking than just rotating your body a certain number of degrees and walking forward. And the obvious similarity to Bitcoin we see is that "hacky" soft forks introduce complexity into the code. You've also gotta figure that Stargates are more dangerous. Oh sure, you think to yourself, "this is gonna be great. I'm going to save so much time on my commute." But then one morning you're a little more tired than usual, and you make a tiny error entering the coordinates for your workplace and suddenly you find yourself trapped on an alien slave planet being forced to mine Naquadah for Jaye Davidson. Similarly, unnecessary complexity in Bitcoin's code is bad because it increases the chances that dangerous bugs slip through and pop up unexpectedly or are deliberately exploited. The code also gets increasingly difficult to maintain and upgrade as you pile one hack on top of another.

tl;dr: hard forks yes; Stargates no
[doublepost=1472705941,1472704849][/doublepost]If anyone's interested, I've had some interesting back and forth in the comments section with MAbtc, the author of that hard fork v. soft fork piece from the other day that I said almost gave me an aneurysm. Here's an excerpt (the parts where I'm quoting something MAbtc said are bolded):

“That’s all well and good, but it’s not how consensus networks work. It’s not how Bitcoin works. You can continue to use sophistry to avoid the facts, but intelligent people won’t fall for it.”

Well, I don’t see how my analogy [comparing Bitcoin / money to language] is “sophistry.” It’s just an analogy that I happen to be fond of. Is it a perfect analogy? Well, no because analogies never are. But, to expand on my analogy since I really do love it, it seems to me that your view of Bitcoin (referring to “the” software and claiming that it requires “immutable consensus rules”) is sort of like the people who treat “the dictionary” as the definitive guide to whether or not a word is “real.” And thinking that “soft forks” and “new rules” are acceptable but that “hard forks” aren’t is sort of like being ok with adding new words to “the dictionary” but trying to stop people from repurposing old words (because the latter can result in ambiguity / a “split” in how you’re understood by different people depending on whether they’ve “updated their language protocol”).

“Okay. As Satoshi said: ‘Nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will.’ Go ahead and leave the network.”

Well, you can obviously call it whatever you like. To me, a more accurate characterization [than nodes "leaving the network" in response to a malicious 51% soft-fork] would be “the network routing around an attack.” Because to me, “the network” isn’t defined by one particular rule set with this weird ratchet-like characteristic where rules can only be added but never subtracted. Rather, “the network” is a network of economic participants using an inherently-fluid protocol to maintain and update a shared monetary ledger.

“That is exactly the intention of vote thresholds like 75% — to coerce the minority of miners. A sufficient mining monopoly can then coerce the userbase as a function of their need for confirmed transactions.”

Eh… or their intention is just to use the protocol they prefer. (You’re not suggesting we force them not to run the software they want to?) Look, if you want to call that “coercion,” suffice it to say that it’s the kind I’m A-OK with. To me, complaining about “coercion” in that scenario is sort of like my imaginary 10,000-year-old man complaining that he’s being continually “coerced” into changing the language he speaks. (BTW, I just watched an interesting youTube video called “How far back in time could you go and still understand English?” and apparently the answer is only like 600 years before things start getting really dicey.)