Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
380
101
This is not "ideal" in my mind, but is not a serious problem in my mind either.
Peter, thanks for your response and thanks for conceding that its not ideal. I know we have discussed this before, but let me try to explain why this is a significant problem.


In the last month or so the largest pool has had a c24% share of the global hashrate. This makes orphan risk costs only 76% of that of a small miner, assuming all else is equal. At the same time you argue (incorrectly in my view, due to improvements in technology you often talk about) that miners will not empty the memory pool of fee paying transactions because of this orphan risk cost. The only way this makes sense is if orphan risk costs are significant, if they are very tiny then miners will empty the memory pool of fee paying transactions.

In this scenario, how will a small miner stand a chance against a larger pool? How will a 10% pool stand a chance against a 40% pool? In a competitive industry any reduction in costs could have a large impact. I appreciate this issue is not ideal for you, but please try to understand that from my point of view, it is simply not acceptable to make a decision on this right now.

This disagreement is entirely legitimate, both viewpoints are valid and we should discuss this. Establishing the impact of this problem is difficult. I try to be open minded and maybe you are right, maybe it is not a serious problem. Cant we both agree that we do not know the answer? However, all I ask is you end the campaign to impose your view on others on this matter and stop trying to change Bitcoin before discussing these issues and reaching some type of pragmatic compromise.
 
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Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
But a king, however powerful, can not just proclaim gold to be valuable by fiat. He robbed people of gold, borrowed from rich people and confiscated gold mines to get it. Gold became money because it was the best stuff on the market to hold value over time, just to turn around and make another trade, store value from the autumn market to the spring market, or to even out someones consumption over a lifetime. It just had the best properties to be used as money.
Austrians as well as keynesians always confuse cause and effect. Markets, gold mines and 'rich people' have been the effect of organized violence (patriarchy, war lords and priests). When people lived in anarchy (self-sufficiency) those things (markets, slaves in gold mines, rich people) were unknown because inexistent; vulgo: not needed. Taboo!
Bronze, silver and gold was not valuable before our species became mentally ill as some of them began to organize violence.

To me, there is actually no such thing as fiat money. Credit money is not fiat. You have to deposit different kinds of valuables to get a credit. Banks and central banks cannot create credit/money out of thin air. Visit Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Weimar etc.
 
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freetrader

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Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
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that Hal 9000 is becoming a martyr for the idea of an artificially limited settlement layer.

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4rkgtr/kyle_torpey_on_twitter_hal_finney_talking_about/
Yes. I feel there needs to be a balance restored in the universe somehow.

On2ndThought: This seems like a crucifixion indeed. As if Hal is being made to die for our sins of believing in Satoshi. If only he had put a disclaimer in his writings somewhere, like "Forgive them Satoshi, for they do not understand."
 

Erdogan

Active Member
Aug 30, 2015
476
855
Austrians as well as keynesians always confuse cause and effect. Markets, gold mines and 'rich people' have been the effect of organized violence (patriarchy, war lords and priests). When people lived in anarchy (self-sufficiency) those things (markets, slaves in gold mines, rich people) were unknown because inexistent; vulgo: not needed. Taboo!
Bronze, silver and gold was not valuable before our species became mentally ill as some of them began to organize violence.

To me, there is actually no such thing as fiat money. Credit money is not fiat. You have to deposit different kinds of valuables to get a credit. Banks and central banks cannot create credit/money out of thin air. Visit Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Weimar etc.
I think you are fundamentally wrong, and the root cause is your insistence on equaling society (edit: civilization) and violence. I think freedom is the essence of humanity, live and let live, and peaceful cooperation. Most people (not all) follow the rules of self ownership, responsibility for ones own existence, respecting others rights to the same, and peaceful cooperation. Individuals' different preferences and trade creates value for the individual, the trading partner and society at large, the prosperity allows love and care also for those who can not create much value. Noting that you can not measure these things, but individual valuations and trade reveals prices, which are only how individuals prefer one thing over another. The reason (most) people think like this, is that they know that violence is not value creation but destruction.
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
[doublepost=1467898315,1467897389][/doublepost]
I think you are fundamentally wrong, and the root cause is your insistence on equaling society and violence. I think freedom is the essence of humanity, live and let live, and peaceful cooperation. Most people (not all) follow the rules of self ownership, responsibility for ones own existence, respecting others rights to the same, and peaceful cooperation. Individuals' different preferences and trade creates value for the individual, the trading partner and society at large, the prosperity allows love and care also for those who can not create much value. Noting that you can not measure these things, but individual valuations and trade reveals prices, which are only how individuals prefer one thing over another. The reason (most) people think like this, is that they know that violence is not value creation but destruction.
yeah, i agree with this. specialization has allowed humanity to advance to levels unimagined. of course, it creates inter-dependencies btwn specialists at the same time, but as long as ppl are peace loving and "civilized", it works out.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
how does money become a unit of account? which happens to be the final hurdle for Bitcoin.

by making it cheap and easy to use (little to no tx's fees) thus allowing it to become widely distributed and accepted. btw, when i say widely, i mean globally b/c this feature is critical to a successful and secure Bitcoin (it absolutely needs to transcend national borders to setup the game theoretic of international "competition" or FOMO). inexpensive tx's makes it ideal for smallish tx's (coffee) and use by even poor people (use by poor people is also critical for security as they have the most to gain by rebelling against the State fiat money). onchain tx's also represent finality, as bitcoin is a bearer instrument. it's a "push" technology that can't and isn't expected to be taken back (reversed). this property doesn't create false expectations btwn parties or time to "second guess" oneself. what's done is done. which is how ordinary ppl learn to trust Bitcoin and then use it on a daily basis for ordinary trade. which is why RBF and it's variants are destructive and irresponsible. irreversibility enforces responsibility and good decision making. which is what sound money is all about. it's also instantaneous w/o opportunity for the participants to change their minds or circumstances to change over time (think smart contracts require time or LN micropayment channels that can be spammed to prevent closure). CSV doesn't fix anything there b/c lots of value will change hands bidirectionally w/o ever having to settle (sounds like fractional teller banking to me). with unit of account money, there are usually no third parties involved either (think LN hubs or lawyers in smart contracting).

Bitcoin will never become a unit of account w/o the above properties.
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
while not directly related (altho putting the blockchain on your phone might become possible now), technology grinds onwards and upwards while we remain stuck at 1MB4EVA due to kore dev bearishness and financial confliction:

The UFS cards have sequential read speeds of up to 530 megabytes per second — five times faster than the best microSD cards. That means reading a 5 gigabyte, full HD movie in roughly 10 seconds, says Samsung, compared to a UHS-1 microSD card which manages the same feat in around 50 seconds.

http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/7/7/12115616/samsung-ufs-removable-memory-cards
 
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AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
Sorry I do not remember who said it then.

This thread seems to think it was released:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4fi3t8/segregated_witness_by_sipa_pull_request_7910/

However this definition does not really matter, most people are now saying it has not been released. I am happy to accept that.
I think we need 95% consensus before you can chane the the definition your were told, "most people" isn't enough.

Case in point @jonny1000 will follow the majority even if he knows they are not expressing his first hand account. apparently he doesn't need a 95% majority consensus when his reputation is at stake, he's happy to accept the opinions of most people, over what he heard after asking a specific question relating to the segwit release.

[doublepost=1467908188][/doublepost]
Austrians as well as keynesians always confuse cause and effect. Markets, gold mines and 'rich people' have been the effect of organized violence (patriarchy, war lords and priests). When people lived in anarchy (self-sufficiency) those things (markets, slaves in gold mines, rich people) were unknown because inexistent; vulgo: not needed. Taboo!
Bronze, silver and gold was not valuable before our species became mentally ill as some of them began to organize violence.

To me, there is actually no such thing as fiat money. Credit money is not fiat. You have to deposit different kinds of valuables to get a credit. Banks and central banks cannot create credit/money out of thin air. Visit Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Weimar etc.
Adam Smith wealth of nations has a very good explanation as to how metal became money. You'll need to reconcile that. Yes you almost got it with the metal was used to make weapons. I like your premises but we're moving forward from here not back, we've eaten from the proverbial tree of knowledge.
 
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steffen

Active Member
Nov 22, 2015
118
163
Bitcoin is hijacked by people who are turning bitcoin into something which is not in the interest of its users but in the interest of TPTB. Dissatisfaction will build among users and eventually we will see a real alternative which freedom-loving users can switch to. When that happens I expect to see Blockstream and their backers use all the evil tools at their disposal like DDOS attacks on nodes and mining pools etc. They might also mine blocks without transactions and whatever else attack they have devised.

In such a situation it might make sense for the liberty-loving miners to stay away from public mining pools because these mining pools might become easy DDOS targets. The alternative could either be solo mining or small non-public mining pools. The downside of both these anti-DDOS solutions is not only less specialization (which all market proponents would normally prefer) but also a much more unpredictable mining income. Developers working on sound money alternatives could provide technical solutions which will make it easier to be a small (group of) miner(s). Here are two ideas:

  1. A plug and play software solution (or an instruction manual for dummies) to help small miners set up solo mining and being reasonably sure it is set up correctly.
  2. A plug and play software solution (or an instruction manual for dummies) to help a small group of people set up a a private mining pool.
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
What I find the most plausible is the notion that pre-civilized money was mentally keeping track of favors among a limited number of individuals you know all your life, whereas tangible forms of money with the traditional properties was a massive technological advancement that allowed objectively-valued trading of favors with people that you don't have any prior personal relationship with. Without some system of accomplishing that, I doubt human beings had the logistics to build any larger forms of social organization.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
... use all the evil tools at their disposal ...
With Bitcoin disabled (i.e. if it does not get out of this Blockstream trap) the next tool will be regulation. In the end, I think they will lose this fight, unless they simultaneously manage to take the Internet away from us as well. There is only one way to do that IMO, which is scary.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
@albin

yes, tangible money allowed it to cross borders, be it at the community or national levels btwn ppl who don't know each other. which is why Bitcoin must be able to cross borders as well but mainly at the inter-national level to maintain maximum advantage and security. after all, armies are built up at the national level. gold was the first and only previous money that could do this. now we have the digital version of gold; Bitcoin.

kore dev seems to think that Bitcoin can exist only within the purview of their little geek fiefdom, who mainly exist in the developed, wealthier nations. which is why we hear such disdain from them towards poor ppl participating in Bitcoin who depend on cheap tx fees.

but then i wonder, who would be more resistant to state level oppression; gmax or some little African kid struggling to feed himself and his family the next meal? oh, we have our answer. when a litlle bit of push came to shove (reddit comments), gmax chose Blockstream, not Bitcoin.
 

Erdogan

Active Member
Aug 30, 2015
476
855
how does money become a unit of account? which happens to be the final hurdle for Bitcoin.

by making it cheap and easy to use (little to no tx's fees) thus allowing it to become widely distributed and accepted. btw, when i say widely, i mean globally b/c this feature is critical to a successful and secure Bitcoin (it absolutely needs to transcend national borders to setup the game theoretic of international "competition" or FOMO). inexpensive tx's makes it ideal for smallish tx's (coffee) and use by even poor people (use by poor people is also critical for security as they have the most to gain by rebelling against the State fiat money). onchain tx's also represent finality, as bitcoin is a bearer instrument. it's a "push" technology that can't and isn't expected to be taken back (reversed). this property doesn't create false expectations btwn parties or time to "second guess" oneself. what's done is done. which is how ordinary ppl learn to trust Bitcoin and then use it on a daily basis for ordinary trade. which is why RBF and it's variants are destructive and irresponsible. irreversibility enforces responsibility and good decision making. which is what sound money is all about. it's also instantaneous w/o opportunity for the participants to change their minds or circumstances to change over time (think smart contracts require time or LN micropayment channels that can be spammed to prevent closure). CSV doesn't fix anything there b/c lots of value will change hands bidirectionally w/o ever having to settle (sounds like fractional teller banking to me). with unit of account money, there are usually no third parties involved either (think LN hubs or lawyers in smart contracting).

Bitcoin will never become a unit of account w/o the above properties.
When you do business on some level of complexity, you need to have a measure of how much value you have created, that is needed to adjust your business. A farmer could count cows, a shipowner could count ships or tonnage. He could meet a friend at a shipowners convention and say: Now I have twenty ships. Dollars are convenient for measuring value, except, you can't really use dollars as a measure of value over any substantial span of time. You have to adjust it by inflation for example, or the dollar index or a combination. The value is the supply of dollars, which is how much less people want to hold, and the demand, which is how much more you want to hold. The creation of new dollars is a key to that, and the inflation expectation, and other speculative reasons. There is no objective measure of value, it changes with the individual's circumstances.

In a turbulent money world, you can not use money for calculation and that function of money should be toned down. Of the other two functions, the store of value is the most essential, and the liquidity, the ease with which you can trade them for something else, supports trade, and money is not really a good store of value without liquidity. Those two functions work together, you can not have one and not the other.

The unit of account function, not so much, I really think it should be abolished. Under stable conditions, it can be used, if it supports the purpose of calculation.

AND: You don't really need to use the same unit for accounting as you use in your daily business payment transactions. You can trade in india for rupees, and still use dollars as a unit of account, which many foreign (to India) companies do. The same with bitcoin. You just need some added calculation.
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
@Erdogan

"The unit of account function, not so much, I really think it should be abolished. Under stable conditions, it can be used, if it supports the purpose of calculation."

i hear you on this. in an inflationary world, the dollar as a unit of acct is kinda useless as it's value fluctuates based on the amount of dollar printing going on. i think the description "unit of acct" is more used to reflect the wide acceptance of a particular form of money such that ppl actually think and calculate in that form of money; BTC in this instance. and that would be a good thing for Bitcoin, but only as a reflection of it's acceptance globally.
 

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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@Erdogan :

> The unit of account function, not so much, I really think it should be abolished.

If there is accounting, a unit is immediately needed. Saying abolish that function - how does that make sense / how can it be replaced?
 

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
I think you are fundamentally wrong, and the root cause is your insistence on equaling society (edit: civilization) and violence.
You insist because you believe in a theory (theology) instead in history and anthropology.

The history of the society (civilization) is the history of patriarchy, which is the history of wars and organized violence, which is collectivism, where humans build grotesque collectives of thousands or even millions of dunbar collectives. That never worked, they all collapsed. Now we are at the brink of the 'mother' of all collapses. Can't you see it coming? All societies are 'backed' by organized violence. The communities were not.

Anarchy (community) and patriarchy (society) are completely different life styles.
In an anarchist community the people work together. In a patriarchic society it's the opposite: a contest to produce surplus to pay tribute to the mafia.

Why do all societies grow rampant until they collapse? Because they deserve it. Of course we can deny Tainter's law and then start the same idiocy again after the next collapse.Voltaire's Candide then can be rewritten again and again and again ...

 
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freetrader

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@Bagatell: there is a Firefox extension on the way? I thought they'd abandoned Firefox for Chrome due to browser plugin architectural limitations. I would be very pleased to hear that Firefox is once again supported.
 
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