Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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bitco.in
@cliff nothing, LukeJr is a loose cannon he says stuff all the time and nothing changes. I actually like luke a little he says what he thinks which makes him less a politician and more a technician albeit one who need to be directed.

From experience one needs leverage to enforce change, and if you ask me I though small blockests called check mate when Blockstream put forward the SideChain plan.

Gavin and Hearn pulled off the gloves and gave me new hope. I don't think miners concluding they have been duped and the honesty of LukeJr admission is going to be a significant milestone in the recalibration of the Bitcoin governance war that's going on.

On a separate note I often find myself frustrated with Gavin for passing the baton too soon, but then again he didn't, he brought about an inevitability early so we can learn to deal with it in time.

we still learning and it can be fun or frustrating :mad:...
 

cliff

Active Member
Dec 15, 2015
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Good zerohedge article featuringGreenspan's take on Brexit and current state of economy. I liked this part of the article, in part, b/c its easy to extrapolate relevance to Bitcoin current events: an off-chain scaling solution will make the bitcoin eco-system "entitlement"-centric* AND a Thatcher, or a team of Thatchers, may be necessary:

But speaking of crises, Greenspan warned that fundamentally it is not so much an issue of immigration, or even economics, but unsustainable welfare spending, or as Greenspan puts it, "entitlements."​

The issue is essentially that entitlements are legal issues. They have nothing to do with economics. You reach a certain age or you are ill or something of that nature and you are entitled to certain expenditures out of the budget without any reference to how it's going to be funded. Where the productivity levels are now, we are lucky to get something even close to two percent annual growth rate. That annual growth rate of two percent is not adequate to finance the existing needs.​

I don't know how it's going to resolve, but there's going to be a crisis.

This is one of the great problems of democracy. It goes back to the founding fathers. How do you handle a situation like this? And it's very troublesome, but eventually you get things like Margaret Thatcher showing up in Britain. Their situation is far worse than ours. And what she did is she turned it all around essentially by, as I remember it, the miners were going to strike and she decided - she knew they were going to strike. Since at that point, the government owned these coal mines, she built up a huge inventory so that when they went on strike, there was enough coal in Britain so that eventually the whole union structure collapsed. She fundamentally changed Britain to this day. The fact that we are doing so well in the E.U. is not altogether clear that it is the E.U. or whether it was Margaret Thatcher.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-27/greenspan-warns-crisis-imminent-he-urges-return-gold-standard
*Off-chain scaling creates an entitlement when its premised on future/eventual on-chain settlement. The service offered will be contractual and therefore subject to failure, including the inability to pay high transaction fees. Imagine miner fees fluctuating wildly and w/o notice; being used to punish certain lightning hubs w/ higher fees; etc. to the point that hubs can't profit w/o passing on an unreasonable amount of fees to their customers (miner fee + hub fee)). Nonetheless, the off-chain service contract creates a right to on-chain settlement in the future. A large chunk of the user-base will become dependent on it.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

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Aug 29, 2015
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As always, Greg lets the opposition tangle with and try to extract information from someone with no authority like LukeJr. It's a very effective tactic in PR and negotiation. It worked on the miners and it's working on big blockers in general.

Even if you were to ask Greg directly, though, he still has a raft of stalling tactics up his sleeve.

- Refer to the nebulous "roadmap," a holy scripture that only he can interpret (but he'll again leave the interpretation to his underlings for as long as possible)

- Say he doesn't have the authority as he stepped down and it falls to the committers (half under BS's pay and the rest tolerant to its tactics) and Neutral Janitor van der Laan (who will say he just rubberstamps the ever-shifting notion of "Core consensus")

- Make promises that will be broken with suitable excuses in the future

- Bundle ever more Blockstream agenda into the blocksize hardfork

- Reduce the size of the increase even further, for "reasons"

- Make the increase something along the lines of Segwit or Flexblocks such that it's highly questionable whether it even counts as an increase (and the specifics that matter will remain up in the air until the last minute), it further changes economics, and it of course further advantages the BS business model

- At the critical time, retreat into the shadows entirely and let "consensus" decide what goes into Core despite any past promises

The stalling tactics are endless; we're dealing with a master here. Given stalling will be absolutely maximized and any blocksize increase leveraged to the hilt as an endlessly retreating carrot, I expect it will come down to a pure Pressure > Friction condition.

When it comes to the brink, Greg will try to reduce the pressure bit by bit, rather than risk losing Core, but he'll be as shrewd and stingy with it as he possibly can. The man knows how to build a moat and play his hand.

The final tactic he could employ, and the most evil, would be to try increasing the friction associated with forking or with moving away from Core. BS will try to extend its tendrils into as much of the space as possible, including arcanities and obfuscations in the code to trip up alternative implementations, contractual dependence relationships with miners and other infrastructure to tie them to BS's fate, and continual PR campaigns and censorship via the faithful servants they have snowed.

Fortunately for Bitcoin, there is no real competition, and it seems to me that a PoW fork as a last resort can erase every last BS machination. BS's $76 million can buy a lot of tendrils, but we are already seeing them have to play catchup to other teams such as BU. Ethereum's downfall took some pressure off as it's now clear there is no substantial competition from altcoins at this time, but I think a big surge in the BTC price will bring much more attention to the situation and build pressure so high that Core must relent or perish.

I always remember that everyone besides BS employees themselves actually want Bitcoin to succeed and will not countenance anything that truly obstructs Bitcoin for long (even granting that extreme consensus types are much less optimist and therefore have a more forgiving view on progress).

Of course as pressure builds, even as BS tries to increase forking friction, the rest of the infrastructure will assemble to reduce that friction with things like alternative implementations (especially to take new coders from the price surge in who are disgusted at Core), fork futures, and routing around the theymocracy.

Honey Badger is digesting a damn huge meal all at once from the 2013 bull run, so this will take a while (has taken a while), but I believe the rewards for overcoming it will be commensurate with the pain, and will again astonish the world.
 
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Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
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One of the small-blockers’ basic arguments goes a little something like this:
  1. Bitcoin’s entire value proposition is based on it being decentralized.
  2. Larger blocks will reduce Bitcoin’s level of decentralization.
  3. Therefore, we shouldn’t raise the block size limit.
It seems to me that there are a number of problems with this argument. Most of the debate seems to focus on 2. Large blockers will often claim that a larger block size will actually increase decentralization, saying things like “sure the cost of running a full node might increase, but we can expect the total number of full nodes to go up thanks to the increased adoption that larger blocks will promote.” Of course, the real problem with this whole debate is not only the speculative nature of these kinds of predictions, but also the fact that there’s no single, agreed-upon measure for “decentralization.” It’s a complete abstraction. Is it the cost of running a full node? Is it the total number of full nodes? Do we need to create some kind of “Decentralization Index” that’s calculated via an elaborate formula that factors in both of those things along with a whole host of other variables, e.g., metrics for “decentralization of Bitcoin development,” the geographic distribution of full nodes, and the geographic and hash power distribution of individual miners and mining pools?

There’s also a huge problem with the third claim. Even if we assume that a larger block size limit would decrease “decentralization,” that wouldn’t automatically mean we shouldn’t implement it. So for example, if we could increase transaction throughput 1000-fold at the cost of a 0.001 percent reduction in “decentralization,” that would presumably be a fantastic tradeoff.

And I actually think there’s also a bit of a problem with the third claim. It’s not that it’s wrong. In fact, I’ve often summarized Bitcoin’s value proposition as the “first form of money in the world that is both decentralized AND digital.” But a point that shouldn’t be lost is that decentralization is a means to an end. We don’t care about “decentralization” per se. We care about Bitcoin preserving the properties of sound money. So instead of asking how changes to the block size limit might impact this abstraction of “decentralization,” I think it’s far more useful to ask how they might impact Bitcoin’s monetary properties. I’ve argued before that good money has three important properties that can be mapped, more or less one to one, onto the three traditional functions of money. Those properties are:

  1. reliable scarcity (the “store-of-value” aspect of money);
  2. transactional efficiency (the “medium-of-exchange” aspect of money); and
  3. network effects/ widespread acceptability (the “unit-of-account” aspect of money).
Taking those properties one at a time, would a larger block size limit pose a threat to Bitcoin’s reliable scarcity (i.e., the 21 M cap)? I really don’t think so. I guess you might argue that larger blocks could lead to dangerous levels of mining centralization which would, in theory, make it easier for a small cabal of miners to push through a fork raising the limit (perhaps under pressure from a hostile government). But I don’t find this scenario very plausible. Again, a larger limit doesn’t necessarily mean no limit; a (safe) larger limit can be set through a BU-type emergent process. And as I’ve argued before, the Schelling point protecting Bitcoin’s limited supply is much stronger than the Schelling point that tends to follow the highest-PoW chain.

On the other hand, would keeping Bitcoin’s block size limit small pose a threat to its scarcity? Well, I think that’s a little bit more plausible. If you force people to do the vast majority of their transactions off-chain, that at least potentially opens the door for essentially fractional-reserve banking which could be hugely inflationary.

What about “transactional efficiency”? Well, that one seems pretty easy. Larger blocks mean lower transaction fees. If the block size limit is successfully kept at 1-MB (and we heroically assume that adoption nevertheless continues apace), that would translate to soaring fees. Imagine 7 billion people attempting to use a system that allows for, at most, 250,000 transactions per day or about 90 million per year. (And again, so-called “off-chain scaling” solutions can’t substitute for actual on-chain scaling.) So this one’s a clear victory for larger blocks, right? Well, I think so, but the small blockers would probably argue that transaction fees are only one measure of “transactional efficiency.” Transaction fees focus on the sender, but we also need to consider things from the recipient’s perspective. People receiving money need to be able to confirm that they have in fact been paid. And, the small blockers will point out, the only way to do that trustlessly is by running a full node, the cost of which is increased by allowing larger blocks. Well, yeah, but so what? Maybe I’m missing something, but I guess it seems obvious to me that, for almost users, for almost all use cases, confirming a transaction by either consulting one (or several) trusted services (e.g., blockchain explorers) and/or by running your own thin client is going to be good enough. Let’s say I sell you my crappy used car for 3 BTC and give you a payment address. You tell me you’ve paid. I check Blockchain.info. It shows that the payment was made and has received 6 confirmations. I check two other block explorers that tell me the same thing. I guess they could all be in cahoots with you and willing to throw away their valuable reputations to help you defraud me, but it seems unlikely. I don’t actually know much about SPV nodes but I see a source that says that some of them “put [their] faith in high difficulty as a proxy for validity.” So I’m assuming what this means is that I can run a thin client that would allow me to just download the block that I’m interested in (the one that includes your supposed payment). I don’t have the full blockchain so I can’t personally confirm that the block is valid, but I can verify that someone created a block with a certain difficulty that includes a transaction that purports to send me 3 BTC. And based on that difficulty I can know that, if it is fake, someone spent the equivalent of about $16,000 in resources to produce it. And then I can maybe just download the headers of the 5 blocks that purport to extend that block and now also know that if I haven’t been paid, someone has now spent the equivalent of about $96,000 to produce this bogus chain? (And presumably even with much larger blocks, the resource requirements for running a thin client of this type are going to be essentially negligible?) Yeah, if that’s all correct, that seems good enough. Also, prioritizing keeping the cost of running a full node low over keeping transaction fees low seems incoherent. I mean, ok great, I could “trustlessly” verify that I’ve received an on-chain payment… but no one can actually afford to send me one. In other words, who cares if individuals can trustlessly verify the state of an interbank settlement network that they can’t afford to actually use? Why would they bother?

That brings us to the final property of good money, network effects. Now to me, it seems obvious that allowing for more transactions via a larger block size limit allows for more users and thus is good for Bitcoin’s network effect. But I suppose a small blocker would argue that a larger block size limit would make Bitcoin “centralized” and insecure, thereby destroying its value proposition and discouraging adoption. I think the more fundamental point is that the importance of network effects means that Bitcoin can’t afford to be arbitrarily “conservative” on the block size issue. Excess “conservatism” in this context is potentially very reckless. If a competitor gets the (supposed) tradeoffs between greater throughput / lower fees and “preserving decentralization” closer to optimal, it will begin to steal market share from Bitcoin and eventually overtake its network effect advantage.
 

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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@freetrader

I stumpled upon that "merged-mining"-quote from Luke too and thought it is maybe the most interesting part of this episode of the blocksize-series.

The new "way to go" for the blockstreamists seems to be "merged mining sidechains". Paul Sczork and his "truthcoin" is one example of it - a bitcoin maximalist and small blockist with an aggressive and arrogant rhetoric, who never ever had explained how his merged mining can work without some kind of so much behated altcoin. Does he think, miners do merged mining for free? Every sidechain that is merged mined instead of mined by a closed circuit of delegates, needs its own asset. This means merged mining sidechains will inevitably inflate the money supply on its chain. Any merged mining sidechain will process Bitcoins PLUS its own assets.

Anyway - merged mining seems to be a stupid idea. Since not every miner merges, any coin currently merged mined with bitcoin is vulnerable by a 51-attack by any major pool. F2Pool could easily block transactions on namecoin.

What follows now, is a speculative interpretation of Lukes comment. I don't have the technical capability to judge things here. I just guess: As long as Bitcoin misses the capability to support merged mining by itself, Sidechains will remain inevitably Sidechains, that produce tokens, that are not bitcoin, while the Mainchain will remain the mainchain and produce tokens, that are bitcoins. Simply because merged mining is a one-way-road: you can only pegg other coins to bitcoin's hashes, but not bitcoin to other coin's hashes.

If I now put on my tinfoil-hat (I usually hate doing so), I'd say that if Bitcoin has implemented native merged mining, it will be possible to substitute Bitcoins mainchain by a sidechain and even make bitcoin subject of some kind of delegated mining of a consortium - that is, in full tinfoil-mode, blockstream, axa, pwc. Maybe.

But all this is pure speculation and has no basis in any technical understanding of me. Maybe "native merged mining" means something completely different.

But probability is high, that merged mining is something that helps blockstream's plan to sidechain bitcoin. Luke telling the chinese miners that their demand - a 2 mb hf - is absolutely miniscule compared to blockstreams demand - sidechains - is nothing less than an open declaration of disrespect.
 
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satoshis_sockpuppet

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Feb 22, 2016
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http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/EXPORT/projects/bitcoin/posts/2015-06-10-my-sofa-is-a-sidechain/main.html

What I wonder, aren't "sidechains" just a relocation of "scaling problems"?
In the beginning of the blocksize series BS agents seriously argued, that a growing Bitcoin system might saturate the internet. (Ok, they didn't say the last part, they just screamed fear inducing O(n^2 ) all over the place and never explained what the n was supposed to be and what they were concerned about). Anyway, if there are any scaling problems what good is it to move this problems to other chains?
If I have a node transferring 1 MB blocks and now I have a sidechain node transferring 1 MB blocks as well, why don't I just have 2 MB Bitcoin blocks?
Only reason I can think of for now: The transactions on the sidechain aren't as secure as on the first. And I, as an end user, won't run a node.
Then I ask myself, why wouldn't I just use traditional offchain transactions? Or micropayment channels? Or the Lightning network?
Are these sidechains the same thing as the private blockcchains? Just a distributed database for a private company?

And if people are so concerned about the decentralization of the bitcoin Blockchain, what good does it do to move the assets away from the blockchain to another, very much less decentralized blockchain?
And why the hell should current Bitcoin miners interested to lose income?
 
http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/EXPORT/projects/bitcoin/posts/2015-06-10-my-sofa-is-a-sidechain/main.html

What I wonder, aren't "sidechains" just a relocation of "scaling problems"?
In the beginning of the blocksize series BS agents seriously argued, that a growing Bitcoin system might saturate the internet. (Ok, they didn't say the last part, they just screamed fear inducing O(n^2 ) all over the place and never explained what the n was supposed to be and what they were concerned about). Anyway, if there are any scaling problems what good is it to move this problems to other chains?
If I have a node transferring 1 MB blocks and now I have a sidechain node transferring 1 MB blocks as well, why don't I just have 2 MB Bitcoin blocks?
Only reason I can think of for now: The transactions on the sidechain aren't as secure as on the first. And I, as an end user, won't run a node.
Then I ask myself, why wouldn't I just use traditional offchain transactions? Or micropayment channels? Or the Lightning network?
Are these sidechains the same thing as the private blockcchains? Just a distributed database for a private company?

And if people are so concerned about the decentralization of the bitcoin Blockchain, what good does it do to move the assets away from the blockchain to another, very much less decentralized blockchain?
And why the hell should current Bitcoin miners interested to lose income?
The idea is, to keep the mainchain decentralized and secure, while offloading heavy transaction volume or micropayment to sidechains with "super-datacenter-nodes", turing-complete smart contracts to other sidechains or privacy-enhancing but transaction-size enlarging technologies to the next sidechains. So if "super-datacenter-nodes" start censoring, the mainchain bitcoins will be uneffected, and if the turing-complete sidechains starts running crazy like a DAO, the mainchain will stay calm and unaffected. In principiell I think the idea is not the baddest and I like it slightly more than lightning.

Problem is, i don't understand how it can work - as I said in my last post. Sidechains are either merged mined (and thus insecure and with their own altcoin) or they are mined by a consortium and by that centralized. So I don't see any possibility that Sidechains can substitute mainchain-scaling.
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
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Roger Ver puts his money where his mouth is.
Great to see him taking so much action in the last months.

Would be great if the "industry tycoons" Coinbase and Blockchain could come along and start funding devs..
[doublepost=1467105895][/doublepost]@Christoph Bergmann
I don't really understand how that should work. At some point the Tx's on the sidechain need to be acknowlegded by the main chain. If your sidechain did DAO-like things, at same point these fuckups will be engraved into the main chain.

Or am I missing something completely?
 
@satoshis_sockpuppet

Sure, if your bitcoin is fuck'd on a sidechain, it will most propably fuck'd on the mainchain (while it might be possible to build a identity-controlled sidechain that enables revoking transactions and so on). Difference is, that if a sidechain got fuck'd as a whole, like over-cenralized, difficulty-broken, ruined by some kind of matrix-style self-executing blockchain-malware (who knows), bloated by some kind of endless floating with 1-satoshi-utxo with op_return_messages, it won't affect bitcoins that have never left the mainchain. In fact, bitcoins that have never left the mainchain will by no way be effected by what happens on a sidechain (except the mainchain is crippled in favor of the sidechain). But I think this doesn't matter, since sidechains don't seem to be a realistic option and I did not found anybody who is able to explain how they are able to work.
 

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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@steffen:

I used this URL in the cachedview.com input field:

https://medium.com/@HaoBTC/a-call-for-core-developers-to-clarify-their-stance-on-2mb-hard-fork-d6797ddbed8c#.toydfp60u

It redirects pretty quickly to Medium, so you have to stop the redirection script by pressing Escape multiple times).

My post which you are quoting included the additions they made shortly after (within maybe 10-15 minutes of me first loading the article). I saw those online and copied them, but when I refreshed they had deleted the entire article. So I combined the pieces I had to form my quoted post.
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
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Interesting dynamics. Midmagic answers days later on exchanges that I have with Greg, and this is a pattern now:


It looks like that guy is employed by Blockstream to 'always have the last word in the narrative' or something, and is being directed by Greg at posts to counter or simply has the job of looking through all threads he participated in, a day later or so.

Oh, and before I forget: @Zangelbert Bingledack , absolutely excellent post.

Lately, it looks like Luke-Jr is a PR front of BS. He's so stubborn nerd-dogmatic on issues, he has quite odd interests and views (geocentricity, tonal system, hard core Catholicism, 56k modem) that it is almost like I am having some kind of human sympathy for him, because he's eccentric enough to not be taken really serious.

However, I think you're right in your general assessment. I would say that he's in the end a real-life sockpuppet of Greg and he'll be dropped like a hot potato by Greg as soon as the time has come to do so.
 
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priestc

Member
Nov 19, 2015
94
191
Has anyone ever read the sidechain paper in total? I did a few months ago. It is a very hard read, all though I think it was written to be hard to read on purpose. In the end, what is a sidechain? Essentially it is an asset that can be exchanged fr another asset without needing to go through a centralized exchange. The idea came out of an era when exchanges were dropping off like flies. ow that we have many exchanges that are ran properly, I don't think sidechains really matter any more. CounterParty has the ability to exchange one asset for another built right into it's protocol. It could be argued that CounterParty assets are sidechains of each other. It could also be argued that Shapeshift.io is an implementation of "sidechain" that makes altcoins sidechains of each other.
 

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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Remember that O(n²) problem that SegWit was supposed to resolve?

Turns out, it's not resolved in SegWit as it currently stands.
Well, now that would explain why they are a bit hesitant in scaling on chain.
We haven’t actually fixed the O(n²) signature hashing problem yet, although we’re fairly confident that we can, and there’s a open pull-req implementing the cache that we need.
https://petertodd.org/2016/segwit-consensus-critical-code-review
 

sickpig

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
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This is starting to get surreal: Peter Todd is just saying the SegWit, in the current form, is not fixing tx malleability and not even O(n^2) sign hashing problem.

see: https://petertodd.org/2016/segwit-consensus-critical-code-review#peer-to-peer-networking

this in particular deserved to be quoted:

Peter Todd (bold's mine) conclusions:
"
  1. Segwit has a number of non-ideal warts at the consensus protocol level, mostly stuff another few months of development time and review could have ironed out (or resulted in a lot of arguments about bikesheds).
  2. There’s a few “close calls” in the consensus-critical implementation that could lead to bugs later, but don’t appear to be actual issues right now.
  3. Having said that, there doesn’t seem to be anything seriously wrong with the current consensus implementation or protocol design; at worst we’ve added a bit of technical debt, in exchange for getting critically needed functionality out the door.
  4. There does appear to be a nuisance problem with the non-consensus transaction propagation part of the P2P protocol, though fixing it may require a rethink of how transaction invs work.
  5. We haven’t actually fixed the O(n²) signature hashing problem yet, although we’re fairly confident that we can, and there’s a open pull-req implementing the cache that we need.
"


and this https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8279

quoting (bold's mine):

"Basically it looks like an attacker may be able to send nodes transactions with malleated witness data, which we don't consistently mark as possibly corrupted in AcceptToMemoryPool(). Result would be those txids being added to recentRejects, messing up propagation."


edit: @freetrader you beat me to it
 
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