@Justus Ranvier I still can't read your reply only authors response to your reply. Same for @cypherdoc
[doublepost=1457205889][/doublepost]
@SysMan let's get the limit out the way and grow this thing.
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Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.
- Thread starter cypherdoc
- Start date
[doublepost=1457205889][/doublepost]
OT's approach to off-chain transactions is to make a clean break between on-chain and off-chain so it never required any changes to the Bitcoin protocol.
this is one of the guys miners are trusting the entire system upon. okey dokey:
let Maxwell and the other core devs be bored or uninterested. that's good for a sound money system.
look at the Fed. they are constantly tweaking the system b/c they think they know what's best for the system. they believe they are in control of markets and can impose their will. if that were true, why have we had massive financial crises, recessions, depressions all along the way? and why do we have the massive wealth inequalities that we do? they should have been able to smooth out or eliminate those events from history. fact is, the market eventually responds and punishes their foolish hubris.
the same applies to Blockstream and core dev as if they know better. not only the tecnicals but in the economics. lol. nothing is further from the truth. they are trying to impose their will on the Bitcoin free mkt. but it's worse than the Fed, there are direct and clear COI's from offchain products like SC's & LN that they will profit from. they're already profitting from consulting fees with private banks. Core says SWSf is no big deal. i say look at the details. understand the math. it changes Bitcoin economics.
this is about removing governance from core dev.
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@cypherdoc:
"The concensus of scientific research seems more in favour of the geocentric theory." -- Luke-Jr, 2005
"The consensus of bitcoin research seems more in favour of reducing the block size limit." -- Luke-Jr, 2016
EDIT: for those who don't know, the geocentric theory is that the Sun rotates around the Earth, and not vice-versa. Luke-Jr is claiming that there is consensus among scientists that the Earth is the center of the solar system, which is of course completely absurd.
"The concensus of scientific research seems more in favour of the geocentric theory." -- Luke-Jr, 2005
"The consensus of bitcoin research seems more in favour of reducing the block size limit." -- Luke-Jr, 2016
EDIT: for those who don't know, the geocentric theory is that the Sun rotates around the Earth, and not vice-versa. Luke-Jr is claiming that there is consensus among scientists that the Earth is the center of the solar system, which is of course completely absurd.
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Today i have sold the remaining of my coins. I'm here since 2012, bought mine in the $1x. But this is not the Bitcoin i signed for, a peer2peer Electronic Cash system, decentraliced, for all the People to use. The Bitcoin we have Today is centraliced, controled by Adam Back and BlockStream. I will not put a penny in a system controlled in a for profit company by guys like that.
Some People i know that have invested in the 2012/13 have sold their bitcoins too.
Hope you miners enjoy your double digits BlockStream coin, they are coming. You are the only responsables of this situation by choosing the wrong side. I hope you learn the hard way, by losing money.
I will be Back only if Clasic wins, maybe..
P.S. Sorry i was in a need for rant, im very fustrated and needed to express my opinion. Thanks to Gavin, Mike and all of you guys that are still fighting trying to keep The True Vision alive
Some People i know that have invested in the 2012/13 have sold their bitcoins too.
Hope you miners enjoy your double digits BlockStream coin, they are coming. You are the only responsables of this situation by choosing the wrong side. I hope you learn the hard way, by losing money.
I will be Back only if Clasic wins, maybe..
P.S. Sorry i was in a need for rant, im very fustrated and needed to express my opinion. Thanks to Gavin, Mike and all of you guys that are still fighting trying to keep The True Vision alive
@SysMan @Jihan
i think it is pretty evident from this thread (going since 2011) that early adopters are going to sell any rally down and cap any price rise as i warned you before. your HK roundtable has failed. come July, half of you will most likely be forced out of business. the way things have evolved, i think that will be a good thing b/c of you colluding with the wrong side. assuming you larger miners have the most leverage into your setups (esp you @SysMan), that should put you in the highest risk category. the fact of the matter is, i want those miners who don't understand the current economic and techinical situation to be the one's to go bankrupt. that is the only way Bitcoin will survive. good luck.
i think it is pretty evident from this thread (going since 2011) that early adopters are going to sell any rally down and cap any price rise as i warned you before. your HK roundtable has failed. come July, half of you will most likely be forced out of business. the way things have evolved, i think that will be a good thing b/c of you colluding with the wrong side. assuming you larger miners have the most leverage into your setups (esp you @SysMan), that should put you in the highest risk category. the fact of the matter is, i want those miners who don't understand the current economic and techinical situation to be the one's to go bankrupt. that is the only way Bitcoin will survive. good luck.
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- Dec 16, 2015
- 2,806
- 6,088
The way I see it, it's a good time to be a miner now.
An enormous opportunity has been laid in front of their door: to prove they understand how the system works, and their part in the greater picture. It's a beautiful system of checks and balances.
The miners who switch to 2MB and continue to support a reasonable on-chain scaling plan to help the adoption of Bitcoin - or shall I say: stop its destruction - will gain enormously in terms of trust of the community.
Now is the time for pioneering spirit. May be the best miners win.
An enormous opportunity has been laid in front of their door: to prove they understand how the system works, and their part in the greater picture. It's a beautiful system of checks and balances.
The miners who switch to 2MB and continue to support a reasonable on-chain scaling plan to help the adoption of Bitcoin - or shall I say: stop its destruction - will gain enormously in terms of trust of the community.
Now is the time for pioneering spirit. May be the best miners win.
So this is apparently the new talking point now:
http://joi.ito.com/weblog/2016/02/22/my-view-on-the-.html
This appears to be a coordinated history rewrite attack.
There was no "over-investment" in 2012 when the planning for this hard fork started. There was, however, a deliberate action by a group of developers to take control of the project and scuttle the scaling planning that was already in progress since they decided that Bitcoin should not go in that direction.
All these problems were predicted, and would not have arisen had the right steps been taken years ago.
Again this is exactly the goal - I understand selling your coins to guarantee profits but to sell everything is insane because imo this is going to be the greatest transfer of wealth in Bitcoin from guys who bought in at $10 and selling at $400 because the guys buying at $400 are not going to be selling anytime soon. These is the establishment making a run at getting the 14M coins that have not been moved in years.
79b79aa8
Well-Known Member
- Sep 22, 2015
- 1,031
- 3,440
To those of you understandably worried about the future of bitcoin, consider this.
1. ETH is not a direct competitor to BTC, at least not in all aspects. It is not a currency, and it is not sound money. Think of ETH is a platform for smart contracts which facilitates the digitization of aspects of the fiat economy. As such, it attracts investors that are not interested in bitcoin. The types of investors who talk about 'Blockchain' but avoid pronouncing 'Bitcoin'.
2. Now bitcoin is also meant to be a platform for smart contracts, and as such ETH will eat some of its lunch. But right now the smart contract aspect of bitcoin is not the main focus. We are interested in bitcoin as sound money, as a medium of payment and as a store of value. Let's get that working first. It is huge, almost unimaginably so.
3. The blocksize limit will go up. Market pressure is just too strong. This is a temporary pain point, but not the main worry.
4. The main worry is that having a single implementation of the protocol is a point of failure, and an existential threat. Because, as we see, a private company can attempt to co-opt the protocol in order to further their own business plan. I am heartened to hear reasonable people like J. Garzik and B. Armstrong make pronouncements in this direction.
5. An example of co-optation is to take advantage of the pressure to grow the block limit in order to inject segregated witness into the protocol everyone runs. This technology was first developed by Blockstream for the propietary software they market to private clients. It would give an interoperability advantage for their products to have that code present in the common protocol. Also, it is a step forward in the implementation of the Lightning Network, which is a system their investors want to implement, because it provides a way to get returns on large BTC holdings, by operating hubs. As many here have pointed out, this comes at the expense of transaction fees, which are miners' long term revenue source. This should be resisted, as miners are the custodians of the network. If the blockchain is not secure, BTC is not money.
6. There should not be invitation only consensus roundtables or conferences arranged by interested parties to plan or decide the future of bitcoin. There should ideally be a spec, multiple implementations, and market forces at play.
1. ETH is not a direct competitor to BTC, at least not in all aspects. It is not a currency, and it is not sound money. Think of ETH is a platform for smart contracts which facilitates the digitization of aspects of the fiat economy. As such, it attracts investors that are not interested in bitcoin. The types of investors who talk about 'Blockchain' but avoid pronouncing 'Bitcoin'.
2. Now bitcoin is also meant to be a platform for smart contracts, and as such ETH will eat some of its lunch. But right now the smart contract aspect of bitcoin is not the main focus. We are interested in bitcoin as sound money, as a medium of payment and as a store of value. Let's get that working first. It is huge, almost unimaginably so.
3. The blocksize limit will go up. Market pressure is just too strong. This is a temporary pain point, but not the main worry.
4. The main worry is that having a single implementation of the protocol is a point of failure, and an existential threat. Because, as we see, a private company can attempt to co-opt the protocol in order to further their own business plan. I am heartened to hear reasonable people like J. Garzik and B. Armstrong make pronouncements in this direction.
5. An example of co-optation is to take advantage of the pressure to grow the block limit in order to inject segregated witness into the protocol everyone runs. This technology was first developed by Blockstream for the propietary software they market to private clients. It would give an interoperability advantage for their products to have that code present in the common protocol. Also, it is a step forward in the implementation of the Lightning Network, which is a system their investors want to implement, because it provides a way to get returns on large BTC holdings, by operating hubs. As many here have pointed out, this comes at the expense of transaction fees, which are miners' long term revenue source. This should be resisted, as miners are the custodians of the network. If the blockchain is not secure, BTC is not money.
6. There should not be invitation only consensus roundtables or conferences arranged by interested parties to plan or decide the future of bitcoin. There should ideally be a spec, multiple implementations, and market forces at play.
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albin
Active Member
- Nov 8, 2015
- 931
- 4,008
Core reminds me exactly of a rogue corporate IS department that is running amuck without proper oversight. In cases like those, say you have some kind of project, and another department like ops figures out some simple IS needs to put on the project plan. The rogue IS department starts playing weird mind games and politics:
Step 1: "Why on earth do you need that?"
Step 2: "What you need is impossible"
Step 3: "Are you sure you need what you need? I can do this other thing that's better."
Step 4: "I can do what you need, but there's gonna be all this red tape and back and forth, because [insert abuse of some corporate policy or misinterpretation of corporate governance laws]".
Eventually you complain to a VP, and magically the straightforward thing you wanted gets done.
Step 1: "Why on earth do you need that?"
Step 2: "What you need is impossible"
Step 3: "Are you sure you need what you need? I can do this other thing that's better."
Step 4: "I can do what you need, but there's gonna be all this red tape and back and forth, because [insert abuse of some corporate policy or misinterpretation of corporate governance laws]".
Eventually you complain to a VP, and magically the straightforward thing you wanted gets done.
Antpool initiates voting:
https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T0HUNNPS6-F0QL86GL8/mmexport1457234193920.jpg
https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T0HUNNPS6-F0QL86GL8/mmexport1457234193920.jpg
great translation and a surprisingly in depth understanding of the current situation by @Jihan
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/495866/the_rbtc_china_dispatch_11_summary_selected/
[doublepost=1457240227][/doublepost]comments are all positive towards Classic:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/495866/the_rbtc_china_dispatch_11_summary_selected/d0p7aq8
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/495866/the_rbtc_china_dispatch_11_summary_selected/
[doublepost=1457240227][/doublepost]comments are all positive towards Classic:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/495866/the_rbtc_china_dispatch_11_summary_selected/d0p7aq8
KoKansei
Member
- Mar 5, 2016
- 49
- 360
Posting here for the first time just to say I'm glad the translations are useful for you gents. I've been following this thread for quite a while and it has always been enlightening.
KoKansei
Member
- Mar 5, 2016
- 49
- 360
@cypherdoc 18suuika752cHZcjEZ4JYSyx2RS64FMafX
I will start using the above address for translation-related tips from now on.
I will start using the above address for translation-related tips from now on.
majamalu
Active Member
- Aug 28, 2015
- 144
- 775
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