Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[VeritasSapere]

@satoshis_sockpuppet Good one. lol

PoW hardfork does scare me like it should a good miner. I also do agree that a blockchain without monetary incentives is bullshit. It is that token of value that makes the whole thing work. Without that it is not a real cryptocurrency in my opinion.

Permissioned and controlled blockchains could function like this but it does require high degrees of centralization, this is exactly what the R3 consortium is working on now, I do not think such systems can compete with real cryptocurrencies directly because they lose most of the advantages that a real decentralized cryptocurrency has.
[doublepost=1456432200][/doublepost]This lecture by Andreas explains well why such permission blockchains will not be able to compete with real cryptocurrencies. I love it when he says, Bitcoin is punk rock, deal with it!

 

[cypherdoc]

Here is an example of a real world use case of Bitcoin beyond money:

-----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hello World
-----BTC ADDRESS----------------------
1PQ1BB819gxUbDZX3aReBXx4r7zGo67jXi
-----BEGIN SIGNATURE------------------
H10zVzGk7ogaprI4bhllANhx67evnEZpKpFqh7eAADh2cDmPHB847aPpgRhiWEEXwO3hv1FPsHKJb4HKxeDZKbc=
-----END BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-------

We even used this in this forum, identity verification using the Bitcoin blockchain is much easier to use compared to PGP.
[doublepost=1456427780][/doublepost]If I am not mistaken some of the notary type stuff Factom and Emercoin are doing has some real world uses cases. So does Namecoin in terms of domain names. Furthermore there are many companies out there with crypto shares, so to speak, some that even automatically pay dividends. Bitshares, NXT, BTCD, BANX, XCP and ARCH are just some examples of this, regardless of what we might think of these projects. It is debatable at which point shares in a company have utility or whether this is just more cryptocurrency speculation.

Bitshares now also has a functional decentralized exchange, which I certainly think does have utility. Ripple is like a type of exchange as well but operates more like a settlement network for banks, but it certainly does have real world use cases as well, in terms of swapping IOU's around for financial institutions at least. lol

I know there are a bunch of things being build on top of Ethereum now, I am not sure if there are actually any real world applications now though, someone might have to correct me on this. Ironic for the second largest cryptocurrency, that I can not think of a real use case today, besides money off course.

Do not get me wrong, I personally do think that currency is the most important aspect of cryptocurrency. It is the aspect that I think is one of the most profound in terms of how much change it can really effect in our civilization. Furthermore it is the path that the cryptocurrency revolution needs to take in order for it be successful in terms of effecting the most positive change. Though there are a lot of other cool things blockchains can do as well, which should not be underestimated or undervalued.

Those are all running off the Bitcoin blockchain are they not? Ethereum still hasn't figured out how they are even going to secure themselves via POW or POS have they? And I'd hardly call ether money but maybe that's what @Norway is looking for. Ripple still runs a centralized blockchain.

I thought he was referring to a private blockchain like through the banks.

 

[VeritasSapere]

@cypherdoc Bitshares has its own blockchain, so do most the examples of "crypto shares" I gave there. Namecoin also has its own blockchain. Factom and Emercoin both have their own blockchain and use the Bitcoin blockchain as well in tandem.

I thought he was referring to a private blockchain like through the banks.

That is what I meant with "permissioned" blockchains, essentially the centralized blockchains that the banks are building.

 

[79b79aa8]

Blockstream's strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish

How to block it? Shouldn't there be a bitcoin "kernel" that does not change, that all viable implementations with extended features must be compatible with, that can always be returned to? Can bitcoind play this role?

 

[cypherdoc]

Very good.

This is how I know Petrov is posturing. He's trying to feed me that bull shit that all core devs will leave because they've said so. Lol, what, they're going to give up their salaries (such if Luke is to believed is close to $500K a year), stock options, incentive pay, prestige as a core dev, speaking engagements, consulting fees, etc just to throw a hissy fit? No way.

If you can't beat 'em, at least don't give up trying to subvert 'em. There's too much money to be had.

 

[sickpig]

Did Kano just throw Blockstream/Core under the bus?


Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=700411.msg14005202#msg14005202

I really do hope so. But I don't think it will happen. Last time I checked kano was firmly on the keep-1MB-max-blocks... but maybe my memory is failing.

 

[solex]

Draft announcement for the first official release of the Bitcoin Unlimited client

Announcing BitcoinUnlimited v0.12
The 1st official BU client release and focussed on main-chain scaling

BitcoinUnlimited v0.12 Highlights are:

Core v0.12 code-base

Disabled:
Replace-by-fee

BUIP004 Community vote determines that there is no consensus for a feature which undermines the 0-confirmation use-case​

Enabled:
Effective block limit via emergent network consensus

BUIP001 Fixed block limit made obsolete
BU follows blockchain with most PoW as per the original Nakamoto Consensus
Separation of the mining block size (default 1MB) from the non-mining block acceptance size (default 16MB)
Block size limits and acceptance depth individually configurable​

Public notification of individual settings

BUIP005 User agent subversion text​

Xtreme Thinblocks

BUIP010 Reduces real-time block propagation sizes by an average of 15x (i.e. 1MB down to 70KB) returning the network overhead for newly mined blocks to the state it was in June 2012​

Xpress Validation

BUIP010 Superfast block validation leverages the earlier validation of transactions which are in the mempool so that only previously unseen transactions in a block need full validation.​

Traffic-shaping

BUIP001 Users can easily configure how much bandwidth should be used for Bitcoin, allowing the BU client to run unobtrusively in a home network.​

 

[cypherdoc]

Blockstream's strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish

How to block it? Shouldn't there be a bitcoin "kernel" that does not change, that all viable implementations with extended features must be compatible with, that can always be returned to? Can bitcoind play this role?

This is why I consider SW so dangerous. It fundamentally changes bitcoin economics and would make it impossible to return.
[doublepost=1456433669][/doublepost]

I really do hope so. But I don't think it will happen. Last time I checked kano was firmly on the keep-1MB-max-blocks... but maybe my memory is failing.

Yeah I think he's a core lover.

 

[sickpig]

@cypherdoc

wrt SegWit: if only they just stop to act like a silly Politburo and drop the discount for the signature part of the block...

 

[satoshis_sockpuppet]

@VeritasSapere Nice presentation but Andreas isn't addressing any underlying principles in depth (I was doing other stuff while listening to the video so I might have overheard it).
@cypherdoc I would definitely call ethereum some kind of money. They are mining some kind of valuable, non forgeable tokens. Ripple isn't really decentralized but certainly money.

I'm still looking for an application of "blockchain technology" without monetary incentives.* So far I'm pretty sure that it is indeed just a buzzword with no real meaning. "No mining, no blockchain". But I'd love to be enlightened about that topic.

*By that I don't mean using the bitcoin blockchain for non monetary purposes.

 

[theZerg]

BU supporters go get the alpha release now!!! http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/download
Look under experimental releases. This release has major functional improvements so I'd like to get a lot of runtime quickly so we can move to release status quickly

 

[AdrianX]

It seems the gabfest and yawnfest continues as miners and devs front while the fronting's good.

Nice to see people are starting to ignore this and continue building, confident any threatened roadblocks will take care of themselves. I'm no longer actually sure the Fidelity Effect matters much. It was the same in 2012 in that companies didn't move forward because they didn't know if Bitcoin would be a thing. In both cases it's due to a lack of understanding of how Bitcoin works, only this time it's a deeper understanding that's required...but could that have been any different? How amusing will it be when Bitcoin tramples right over BS's plans as if they were never there? (Even if this requires unprecedented governance steps.)

From where I'm standing Bitcoin is going to have a big shake up if it's going to bulldoze through the incumbent Blockstream Core. I'm not 100% confident it will happen big names and money supporting the Block.

It's by no means a done deal and the Block looks quite shaky, but who knows, 2 years ago I would never have believed the perverted interests could have degraded this far.

 

[albin]

The recent photo of the meeting slide in Hong Kong deriding democracy combined with the recent announcements of the direction of BU and Classic reminded me a little anecdote that maybe reinforces why we need people outside of the little gmax admiration society irc club in this thing.

A few years ago my father was curious and wanted me to explain Bitcoin to him. His education is in mechanical engineering, so while he's not familiar with modern computer jargon, he's totally capable of following an explanation of something technical. The main high-level takeaway that he got out of finding out the details was that he was convinced this was the future of how things were going to be done, not because of the fancy high-tech computer bells and whistles, but because, literally in his own words, this "democratizes the money system".

His main concern about the whole thing? You would be astonished. He bought everything, he even could get over the "intrinsic value" argument, scaling, the media association with crime, etc. you name it, except I could see his face lacked some credulity when it came to the developers! He didn't immediately jump on it blasting away with unsubstantiated opinions like some buttcoiner, but this is the area he had followup questions about, who are these people, how do decisions get made, how does mining mediate this, etc.

So the point of the anecdote is if in a very short period of time, a technically-educated person with essentially nocomputer savvy whatsoever zeroes in on the high-level concepts and issues immediately, we need these kinds of people in the mix.

 

[cypherdoc]

@cypherdoc

wrt SegWit: if only they just stop to act like a silly Politburo and drop the discount for the signature part of the block...

I was just thinking about this.

They could get really crazy with the numbers of they want. Let's day you truly believe the network can handle 8mb. You make the formula a+b/8<=1. What is that? An 87.5% discount for SW txs? This way you could incorporate all sorts of large complex multi sig txs that favor LN or any other smart contract system you want while forcing miners and full nodes to validate and relay all this extra data at a huge discount. IMO, these will encourage speculation, which is OK of that is what you want bitcoin to be, I guess. I prefer it to stay pure money/cash/sov.

Do you know if LN plans 2of3, 3of2, or 3of3 multi sigs? In this case it would be a great business to be a LN hub.
[doublepost=1456435884][/doublepost]

@VeritasSapere Nice presentation but Andreas isn't addressing any underlying principles in depth (I was doing other stuff while listening to the video so I might have overheard it).
@cypherdoc I would definitely call ethereum some kind of money. They are mining some kind of valuable, non forgeable tokens. Ripple isn't really decentralized but certainly money.

I'm still looking for an application of "blockchain technology" without monetary incentives.* So far I'm pretty sure that it is indeed just a buzzword with no real meaning. "No mining, no blockchain". But I'd love to be enlightened about that topic.

*By that I don't mean using the bitcoin blockchain for non monetary purposes.

I agree

 

[AdrianX]

Blockstream's strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish

How to block it? Shouldn't there be a bitcoin "kernel" that does not change, that all viable implementations with extended features must be compatible with, that can always be returned to? Can bitcoind play this role?

The Bitcoin Kernel is what is being debated, it's needing to be upgraded, it needs to remove the block limit from the consensus layer. After that, lock it for all I care.
[doublepost=1456437113,1456435965][/doublepost]@solex thanks, is it possible when posting such announcements to put a link to a dedicated thread.

A number of questions pop into my mind when I read such things that are probably best not discussed here, and it would be great if it was a click away.

 

[Norway]

I tried to post a link to the Classic roadmap at r/bitcoin with the neutral title "Bitcoin Classic Roadmap".

Never showed up on the subreddit. These guys are desperate!
To censor the latest roadmap from Core from r/btc would be unthinkable.

No symmetry. It's not just two different views.

 

[sickpig]

f2pool under DDoS attack

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=700411.msg14010227#msg14010227
[doublepost=1456439289,1456438644][/doublepost]

Do you know if LN plans 2of3, 3of2, or 3of3 multi sigs? In this case it would be a great business to be a LN hub.

as far as I know LN is almost entirely a question of multisig txs.

 

[solex]

@AdrianX
Great point.

Release thread where discussion is invited
https://bitco.in/forum/threads/announcing-bitcoinunlimited-v0-12-first-official-release.909/

 

[agilewalker]

Unverified:



https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/47jgah/jihan_wu_on_weibo_after_many_considerations/?ref=search_posts

I could not make sense of that mess of a page that came up when I followed the Weibo link.

@agilewalker: Do you rate this claim as true?

Yes, it's true. It requires logging in to read the post. After that, he posted another one:"Inventor of SPDY on the block size debate http://belshe.com/2016/01/18/bitcoin-blocksize-and-the-future/".

 

[cypherdoc]

f2pool under DDoS attack

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=700411.msg14010227#msg14010227
[doublepost=1456439289,1456438644][/doublepost]

as far as I know LN is almost entirely a question of multisig txs.

Back online with last 3/4 blocks