Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

VeritasSapere

Active Member
Nov 16, 2015
511
1,266
@awemany If there are shenanigans going on behind the scenes then that would still not be enough to justify a change in algorithm since it is not clear whether that is the case or not. This is a test of Bitcoins governance mechanism, I really do hope it succeeds. Whether an algorithm switch should be considered as part of the incentive mechanism I am not sure, however I do think that the market itself is the greatest incentive mechanism of all.

@Melbustus You took the words right out of my mouth, well said. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: awemany

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
i really wouldn't be shorting stocks right here...
 

rocks

Active Member
Sep 24, 2015
586
2,284
Personally I would be looking very closely at projects like Dash and Bitshares, which have incentivized full nodes and a much more sophisticated governance mechanism. If Bitcoin is broken in these departments then these other projects have most likely solved these problems already. This is why I think it would be pointless resetting the mining algorithm without carrying out other wide ranging changes. Otherwise we will end up with the same problems when we grow up to this point again.
It has seemed strange to me that ETH has benefited the most in the recent alt run up because ETH is not necessarily positioned as P2P money and is thus not a direct replacement.

What is the argument for Dash or Bitshares to replace bitcoin and how are full nodes incentivized and what are the governance mechanisms?
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
@rocks

It has seemed strange to me that ETH has benefited the most in the recent alt run up because ETH is not necessarily positioned as P2P money and is thus not a direct replacement.
and that's probably why Bitcoin's price hasn't budged. you're right, ETH is no Bitcoin replacement. that's good for us.
[doublepost=1455214322][/doublepost]Classic nodes continuing their advance: 13.55% now. that's really good.

don't think these stupid miners can ignore that.
[doublepost=1455214530,1455213905][/doublepost]off to a great start. DZZ @ 6.14 already and climbing. most charts fill the gap. this one should too:

 
  • Like
Reactions: VeritasSapere

Melbustus

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
237
884
It has seemed strange to me that ETH has benefited the most in the recent alt run up because ETH is not necessarily positioned as P2P money and is thus not a direct replacement.

What is the argument for Dash or Bitshares to replace bitcoin and how are full nodes incentivized and what are the governance mechanisms?
While I agree that ETH is no replacement, due to a fundamentally different focus, it *is* one of the very few public chains for which there's a non-stupid argument for it to have lasting value.

So it's understandable in that sense. I mean - look around....if you were looking to diversify out of bitcoin a little, what would you choose? Just about everything else is total junk. I *expected* litecoin to ramp on Blockstream's funding announcement, but maybe the fact that LTC has been a zero over the past month or two is actually evidence that the crypto market is maturing a bit; ie, despite the drama in bitcoin-land, people are understanding that litecoin is long-term junk regardless.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
@Melbustus

agreed, just look at this lameness:


[doublepost=1455215071][/doublepost]in the LTC-sense, it's no surprise that Charlie Lee is signing these letters that cripple Bitcoin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VeritasSapere

Melbustus

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
237
884
@cypherdoc - I think Charlie is just confused. If he really wanted to ramp the LTC exchange rate, he'd drive an adaptive blocksize limit through on LTC; something akin to Stephen Pair's suggestion for Bitcoin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VeritasSapere

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
@Melbustus

agreed. i really like that proposal. surprised it hasn't gotten more traction. the space is just too immature.
 

sgbett

Active Member
Aug 25, 2015
216
786
UK
Compare and contrast:

Classic homepage has a list of people who support it. Reddit cries foul. Nobody on the list comes forward to refute it.

Reddit posts a list of people who signed a letter (pinky promise) saying they don't support a contentious HF and giving Core one final 3 week deadline to give a concrete HF plan. Reddit claims this is rejection of Classic. Within hours Bitmain head honcho is on twitter telling redditards to STFU.

At least thats how I see it ;)
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
Given the miners perpetual inability to figure this out, I for one can't wait until July comes.

Assuming miners run on thin margins given the competition, at least half of the hashing power is getting setup to get hurt to the tune of 50%decrease in margins .that should focus their minds .the fastest and only way for them to compensate is to put through more tx fees. In that sense, we should see ideally a 50%increase in support of Classic.

Satoshi planned this pretty well.
[doublepost=1455202157][/doublepost]Also, the my latest poll results are pretty important, not to mention striking. I suggest sharing them when you can. They're quite the statement against core philosophy.
Just to reiterate your point and emphasize the differences. Relative mining income halves but transaction fee income is not affected. Miners get to keep 100% of fee income. Their emphasis should be on growing this income. With the understanding of where that income is derived.

Hint it's not a result of higher transaction fees that are shared with LN hub owners with no PoW skin in the game.
 

rocks

Active Member
Sep 24, 2015
586
2,284
Reddit posts a list of people who signed a letter (pinky promise) saying they don't support a contentious HF and giving Core one final 3 week deadline to give a concrete HF plan.
Where in the letter did it ask for a 3 week deadline? I must have missed that.

Also it seems insane to be able to get that many signatories so quickly. I'm not sure to believe this or what.

If miners are able to demand a HF and core caves, then that is at least something. Although if miners do not switch to Classic or force core to HF, then there is a major problem.

Edit: OK I missed this part on the first read (was too taken aback by it)
"In the next 3 weeks, we need the Bitcoin Core developers to work with us and clarify the roadmap with respect to a future hard-fork which includes an increase of the block size."

It seems the letter is both demanding a plan that includes a HF and is expressing a strong view that all client code should follow the same HF direction to keep everything aligned.

As much as I want a miner community that fights core, I can also see how this makes sense. To me they are in a sense rejecting both Classic and Core, they are rejecting Classic's HF approach but also rejecting Core's no HF approach.

Again it all comes down to whether or not the market can force growth or not. Once that precedent is set it will be set and easier next time.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: VeritasSapere

lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
4,290
Think there needs to be a nice bullet pointed presentation to spread around of exactly how miners will be loosing future profits by following the core scaling plan and how this is primarily designed to move fees incentives and power away from the main chain and the purview of the mining community as a whole.

projected losses with some $$$ signs might change a few minds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VeritasSapere

VeritasSapere

Active Member
Nov 16, 2015
511
1,266
It has seemed strange to me that ETH has benefited the most in the recent alt run up because ETH is not necessarily positioned as P2P money and is thus not a direct replacement.

What is the argument for Dash or Bitshares to replace bitcoin and how are full nodes incentivized and what are the governance mechanisms?
That is a good observation. I personally think Dash is the cryptocurrency that is best positioned to replace Bitcoin in a worse case scenario. So I will explain briefly what some of its main features are, at the risk of being called out evangelizing an alt coin. ;)

First of all the incentivized full nodes, called master nodes, are essentially paid full nodes. That get 45% of the block reward, the miners also get 45%, the other 10% is used for funding. I will get back to that soon since that is what makes it very interesting.

To run a masternode requires collateral, in the case of Dash it requires a thousand dash. This prevents any type of sybile or spoofing attacks, or that anyone can take over the network for that matter, it also helps to ensure that the masternodes incentives align well with the network. The block reward is shared among the masternodes in a similar way to how mining works in Bitcoin, meaning that master nodes are actually self balancing in regards to incentive just like mining.

The masternodes actually govern development, or more accurately, they decide where this 10% of the block reward goes. Anyone can make a proposal which is then voted on by the entire network of masternodes, essentially sending Dash to any address in order to fund their proposal. This is done in a completely decentralized and distributed fashion. This means that Dash is essentially a self funding blockchain or a Decentralized Autonomous Organization.

I think this is very exiting, I think these types of organizations are a good path for the future.

One of the things Bitcoin has going for it is its simplicity in its design, if its governance mechanism does work well enough then you can argue for its superiority and its dominant position is justified. If its governance mechanism proves itself to be flawed then you can see how something like Dash might have solved these problems and could be the way forward.

In regards to some of its other features, compared to solving the scaling and governance issues, it does not seem as important in regards to our discussion here, however it is worth mentioning that Dash is capable of doing "instant" (few seconds) confirmed transactions. So you get close to the equivalent level of security of a single confirmation instantly, which can be very useful in retail situations for example. Dash has the option anonymize the links between transactions, this is a option however unlike Monero. Transparency is still possible, and it is obvious if coins are being purposely anonymized. I think this is important for certain social and ethical reasons, when corporations and governments get more involved for example, I think it would be good if we can keep a very close eye on them. ;)

Dash had no pre-mine, pre-sale or anything like that, there is some controversy about when it was first launched, to much was mined in the first two days then should have been, the emission schedule was changed when that happened to fix the problem. Some people still shout scam or pre-mine because of this event, personally I do not think much off it since those coins have since been redistributed and everyone has had a chance to buy in when the price was much lower. The history is still out there, Dash used to be called XCoin, before it was called DarkCoin. It would have been wrong for me not to mention this.

Dash block time is obviously faster as well which leads to a much higher TPS, when the block size issue arises masternodes will simply vote to increase the blocksize, it seems like that is the position of the Dash community presently to support this as well. To be honest some of these altcoin communities are like a breath of fresh air compared to Bitcoin right now, especially before I discovered this great community in this Bitcoin forum. It is also good to consider that almost all of the masternodes are run in datacentres, so increasing the blocksize will not be as big of an issue for those reasons as well. There are already three and half thousand masternodes on the Dash network, approaching the amount of nodes Bitcoin has with a market cap of less then twenty five million I think is impressive.

There we go a short explanation of Dash, and why I think it is one of the best P2P money alternatives to Bitcoin, if requested I can start another thread in this forum to discuss this some more as well.

I will not get into explaining Bitshares, it is far more centralized by design and has a much more complex governance mechanism. I favor simplicity, so if Bitcoins governance mechanism does not work then its best alternative would be something like Dash and only after that maybe something like Bitshares. Increasing the complexity I suppose as we try to discover how to implement decentralized governance. I am hoping that Bitcoins incentive mechanisms through proof of work will work well enough, elegant in its simplicity of design most likely madly complex when applied to the real world, in terms of how the game theory and balance of power actually works.

Even if Bitcoin does remain the dominant cryptocurrency in the world, I am sure it can happily co exists with these alternatives as well as it already does today. I think the altcoins represent the very ethos of Bitcoin itself by representing the very principles of decentralization and freedom.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bluemoon

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
We're at Alts = 16% of Bitcoin's value right now. Alts are historically well under 10%. And the spike has been fast recently. Miners need to wake up.
By my reading altcoins are much lower than they used to be, maybe 3-5% of Bitcoin's value at most. It's just that there are more premines and instamines in the top spots now, vastly inflating the result.

1
Bitcoin LEGIT

2
Ethereum PREMINED
3
Ripple PREMINED

4
Litecoin LEGIT
5
Dogecoin LEGIT, fast inf
lation (opposite of premine)

6
Dash INSTAMINED (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=999886.0)

7
MaidSafeCoin ???
8
BitShares ???
9
Factom PREMINED

10
Peercoin LEGIT(?)

11
Stellar PREMINED
12
Nxt PREMINED

13
VPNCoin ???
14
Emercoin ???
15
YbCoin ???
16
Bytecoin ???
17
Monero LEGIT, fast inflation (opposite of premine)
18
Namecoin LEGIT


There have been more non-legit minings recently, since they have proven more profitable for founders, so I'm almost ready to assume the ranking in terms of actual investment is Litecoin/Doge nearly tied for No. 2, followed by Monero, then Peercoin and Namecoin. Besides Monero a long time ago, not much has really changed over the years.

I doubt you'd find Ripple or Dash in the proper top 20. It seems like most of the investment happened in 2013 during the boom in Bitcoin, not surprisingly. Ethereum is a bit of wild card. Seems like it could be in the top ten or even top five already, but it's hard to tell without more disclosure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bluemoon

Bagatell

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
728
1,191
I'm not sure to believe this or what.
I wouldn't. As far as I can tell (not being a Twitter subscriber) this whole pantomime revolves around a Twitter account with four tweets linking to Medium account with one post propagated (or at least abetted) by Samson Mow. I have made a few posts about this today if you want links.
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
@Bagatell, yes please. It was overwhelmingly accepted as valid, so if you have a good and clear description why it is not, that would be appreciated.
 

VeritasSapere

Active Member
Nov 16, 2015
511
1,266
1
Bitcoin NO PREMINE or PRESALE. FAIR

2
Ethereum FAIR PRESALE
3
Ripple PREMINED
4
Litecoin NO INNOVATION. FAIR
5
Dogecoin NO INNOVATION. FAIR
6
Dash NO PREMINE or PRESALE. FAIR
7
MaidSafeCoin FAIR PRESALE
8
BitShares FAIR PRESALE
9
Factom FAIR PRESALE
10
Peercoin NO PREMINE or PRESALE. FAIR

11
Stellar PREMINED
12
Nxt FAIR PRESALE
13
VPNCoin ???
14
Emercoin NO PREMINE or PRESALE. FAIR
15
YbCoin ???
16
Bytecoin PREMINED SCAM
17
Monero NO PREMINE or PRESALE. FAIR
18
Namecoin NO PREMINE or PRESALE. FAIR


I had to correct you there @Zangelbert Bingledack, I modified your list and I made it more accurate. The cryptocurrency market is maturing, most of these alternative cryptocurrencies are good projects. :)
 
Last edited: