Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Matthew Light

Active Member
Dec 25, 2015
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121
I'm all in favor of market-based solutions, and it is clear to me that BU is in alignment with this.

Core is a bunch of technocrats who think they know best and should be dictating rules to the Bitcoin agora, not very different from the Federal Reserve Board and the ECB who think they should dictate the base interest rate for their economies.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
yeah, right. Holiday sales look to have disappointed. i haven't looked at the numbers yet but you can see it in the charts of retailers:




[doublepost=1451491566,1451490952][/doublepost]yeah, keep diverging mofo:

 

Peter R

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,398
5,595
I don't think bitcoin unlimited is a dictatorship. We have a constitution which sets a procedure for elections as well as a no vote of confidence. That makes it a constitutional democracy.

As for Jeff, he has publicly supported a blocksize increase since early on I believe. He may have kept his "enemies" closer perhaps to very effectively show their true intentions as he did by having even his minimal compromise of 2mb rejected. Thus starting what I think is the beginning of the end of the war.

However, we have no where near won. We have to persuade the whole ecosystem to upgrade to BU and that is a huge task. Any little fault and we fail and with our failure comes core dominance and with core dominance comes settlement nonsense.

I will be brutally honest, and I apologise for it in advance, but I want our project to succeed so I feel I have no choice. While @theZerg actually stood up and coded BU for which he deserves huge respect, he himself says that he has "no prior Bitcoin software experience".

I think therefore Gavin was right to bring us down to earth as people may have used the software in trust of our recommendation. We are dealing with money here, with people's savings, some six billion dollars worth. We need to be absolutely certain that there is no unintentional bug or people lose their hard earned money as well as send bitcoin's reputation into the drain.

The situation we are in therefore means that, unfortunately, we have a moral imperative to warn individuals to not actually use the nodes because it has not been vigorously tested or peer reviewed and to only treat it as a protest vote at this point.

Obviously that is not in any way @theZerg's fault. It is not his fault he doesn't have any prior bitcoin software experience, it is not his fault no developer reviewed his coded or made suggestions etc, it's not his fault others have not tested it and so in. To the contrary he actually deserves huge respect.

We do not know if these developers knew about the project though. @cypherdoc for example stated somewhere to not "hit" Gavin with BU yet. Now they know and we very much hope they want to contribute and even take lead and perhaps we can even help by lobbying them.

Because, if this node is to be actually used and have any chance of replacing core thus making BU a runaway success, we need trusted known experts with years of experience who know how to lead an open source software project like BU who can test the code, review the code, foster trust and make sure that every one's money is absolutely safe.

Now people are using such terms as begg or whatever. I'd say lobby. I think we need to lobby Jeff and others to give us the experience and leadership we need to take this thing to the world stage and give the knock out punch and that is exactly what I personally am going to do because I do not care about egos or emotional baggage or anything like that.

Respect where due, of course, but what is right for the project, for bitcoin, and for us all as I see it has primacy for me over anything else. And I doubt that anyone can reasonably argue with the suggestion that what is right for the project right now is someone with actual experience of leading an open source project who intimately knows the code and it's many potential bugs.
While I agree with much of this sentiment, I think you are overstating the extent of Gavin's criticisms. They were mostly "cosmetic" in nature from what I could tell (Gavin prefers that unused code should be deleted rather than commented out, and that changes to the main branch should be done with larger comprehensive pull requests rather than a bunch of small ones).

Remember also that the BU code received significant testing on Testnet as well, and--like @Inca said--the changes were very minimal in the first place!

That being said, I think we should take this very light criticism as a test of character. If Bitcoin developers have historically deleted unused code rather than sometimes commenting it out, then let's just agree to do the same thing. If Bitcoin developers are used to submitting their pull requests in a certain way (excuse my lack of experience with GitHub if what I just wrote sounds silly), then let's do the same thing.

Lastly, I'm willing to help write up the Testnet results (presenting these results were planned for Scaling Bitcoin Hong Kong actually so from that perspective it's unfortunate I was unable to present).
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
uh oh. and silver leads:

 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
still no peep outta Maxwell? this is getting serious...
 

Aquent

Active Member
Aug 19, 2015
252
667
@Inca and @Peter_R I am thinking more strategically. XT, if we are to be realistic (and we must) is sort of dead in the water. The miners won't accept it. The only way to force XT is the nuclear option and we don't need to do that in my view.

BU however has a real chance of actually resolving this dispute in a decentralised fashion. It is currently catching fire and with a little kick this can explode and we can see 2k - 3k maybe 5k BU nodes. There is little if any argument that can be made against it, except for one, no experienced developers. If this meme catches on then BU can potentially be seriously tainted so I think we'd want to act fast.

Unfortunately, we must accept that it is true BU does not have experienced bitcoin developers. theZerg himself says as much in the bit I quoted so I do not think I am saying anything controversial. It's just reality and that's fine and nothing wrong with it. No need to delude ourself etc.

So, we need to solve this and I think we need to do so now. There is nothing controversial in regards to that either from what I can see.

We can very effectively lobby for experienced developers to come and help and there is nothing controversial with this statement either. We want experienced developers!

So lets make this happen. Lets turn our dream of an interdisciplinary, constitutional democracy, decentralised approach into reality and lets do it now.

BTW, my idea of asking for Jeff to take lead came up yesterday in reply to @rocks post as you can see if you go a bit back. There is no criticism against BU, except for one, and we need to fix that last criticism and so be all set. There is nothing controversial in any of this from what I can honestly see. We just need highly experienced bitcoin developers, we need to go get them, that's it.
 
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theZerg

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 28, 2015
1,012
2,327
I am withholding my formal candidacy in the hopes that someone who has more experience with Bitcoin and more importantly is paid full time wants to run. An engineer sponsored by some Bitcoin company (or group of companies) would be a good choice. The Articles will basically restrict such a person from abusing his power.

However, I do not feel like we need to "warn" users who are running Bitcoin -- software which is already labelled as experimental. Aquent, if it helps assuage your fears, know that not a single line of code in the wallet, transaction generation, or database areas was touched. So worst case is the BU node crashes or hangs. In fact, BU actually fixes a couple of memory leaks and runaway loops.

Also, Bitcoin is not really a large project (but an intricate one) and if all the code I wrote were to magically and permanently crash I would guess that orders of magnitude more economic damage would be caused than the 6 billion dollar Bitcoin market cap. The biggest concern with my candidacy is in fact if there's a SHTF event somewhere else I may not be able to focus on Bitcoin for days or weeks.
 

Peter R

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,398
5,595
"However, I do not feel like we need to "warn" users who are running Bitcoin -- software which is already labelled as experimental. Aquent, if it helps assuage your fears, know that not a single line of code in the wallet, transaction generation, or database areas was touched. So worst case is the BU node crashes or hangs. In fact, BU actually fixes a couple of memory leaks and runaway loops."

Agreed.
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
I am withholding my formal candidacy in the hopes that someone who has more experience with Bitcoin and more importantly is paid full time wants to run.
that says a huge amount about your character @theZerg. thank you.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
Core is a bunch of technocrats who think they know best and should be dictating rules to the Bitcoin agora, not very different from the Federal Reserve Board and the ECB who think they should dictate the base interest rate for their economies.
Yes, and like with the interest rate, there will be a general interest rate in the economy even if the Fed doesn't set one.

It's likewise a situation where forcing the interest rate to be either low or high are both market interventions. Removing the interest rate or setting it to infinity are not the free market solution either. (Imagine how titanic an "interest ratesize" debate for the whole economy would be!) No, the free market solution is to let it emerge.

I have recently come to the understanding that BU's proposition is much more conservative and the debate should be much easier to win (at least among free marketers) than is the case with XT, because XT is still Core-style spoonfeeding of consensus. BU is something both small blockists and large blockists can embrace, I think.

 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
5,257
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in this Joseph Poon post from 2mo ago, you see that all these changes being slipped into the code, like OP_CLTV, nSequence, RBF are all meant to make LN work more smoothly. it appears that those listed are partial fixes rammed in when SW would definitively fix malleability with one fell swoop. but that doesn't stop core devs from inserting them anyways just in case they can't get SW. so how much more complexity creep do these additions create?:

 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
i swear. these 2 charts are dead set on making me not just weep, but cry:



if i had to guess, my bet is Bitcoin meets gold somewhere in the 700 range: