Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[AdrianX]

Money (=credit) can't be created out of nothing. If that would be possible, Zimbabwe, Venezuela et al. would do it, but they cannot.

Fundamentalism is a problem, very evident with @Zarathustra and @cbeast. We've created this mess, we can fix it. There is no need for nuclear war or to go back to the stone age. Progress is learning from your mistakes not constructing a victim narrative that's built on the myopic understanding of human history.

Credit is credit, sure fiat today is based on debt and assets are used as collateral to issue money. Money was once based on gold (not credit) defaulting on debt or giving too much credit may result in the misallocation of future resources like we see today.

The problem is people making the wrong choices based on assessing the wrong data.

Being creditworthy is a confidence game. We don't use gold as money for many reasons, one of them is you can create it out of nothing. Believe me, people have tried. There is actually a pot of gold created out of nothing at the end of a rainbow. Alchemists of the past learned from their mistakes and the science of chemistry was a result, literally, they were trying to make gold out of effectively noting because gold was money.

Post automatically merged: Aug 7, 2021

What do you think when someone talks about internet cafe sweepstakes games online? Internet cafe is a place that hosts many games. It provides an exciting gaming experience for gamers who would like to spin the reels to hit the jackpot. The gambling industry is a profitable business for its owner. Today many entrepreneurs purchase additional internet sweepstake software to earn a profit. However, to be successful in that, business owners should know one essential issue. They need to understand how internet cafe sweepstakes game online works. Sweepstakes games are exciting games that randomly selected players to collect prizes or cash.

It makes me think that some useful idiots are more honourable than others.

Post automatically merged: Aug 7, 2021

if you take a long enough view, then by the second law of thermodynamics, the universe itself is an engine that transforms resources into waste.

Nothing is wasted in nature, at that scale you get matter and time as a result of entropy.

Waste is a relative human construct, it's driven by ignorance and the abuse of power. But ultimately waste is not wasted it's just merely arranging energy in a way that makes us learn how to better arrange energy, So waste always results in progress and learning. There are exceptions to mental manias like believing fundamentalists dogmas. those mutations if viable thrive if not evolve.

When we stop learning and progressing that's the end of an evolutionary branch. In this thread, it is possible there are people who believe that to be virtuous or predetermined.

 

[Zarathustra]

Credit is credit, sure fiat today is based on debt and assets are used as collateral to issue money. Money was once based on gold (not credit) defaulting on debt or giving too much credit may result in the misallocation of future resources like we see today.

The problem is people making the wrong choices based on assessing the wrong data.

Forget it. Debt comes first, always. Whatever commodity The Power That Be demanded to pay off your debt (tax), became the medium of exchange, or better said: the medium to repay your debt. No debt - no money. Everything else are ahistoric fairytales of those who believe in a barter economy, which never existed in the real world.

https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/wars_and_weapons/us_weapon_export_guide/Machttheorie-Martin-Symp.pdf

The Myth of the Barter Economy

Adam Smith said that quid-pro-quo exchange systems preceded economies based on currency, but there’s no evidence that he was right.

www.theatlantic.com

When we stop learning and progressing that's the end of an evolutionary branch. In this thread, it is possible there are people who believe that to be virtuous or predetermined.

Progress within stateless communities in the rainforest is a million times slower than in state/debt based societies.
The life style of a stateless community in the rainforest is essentially the same as it had been 10'000 years ago.

 

[cbeast]

As far as the entropy problem in economics. As I see it the same principle applies to P vs NP. if you take complexity far enough, then P=NP. So that's what we try to do. If you look at N as limited by real-world human needs, then it's within the realm of human possibility. As an example, the traveling salesman problem seems to be NP, but CSW solved it by creating a financial incentive using R-Puzzles. Things like cracking codes aren't really NP problems because there isn't a moral human need to do so. There is no shortcut to helping people with their human needs. The job of engineers is to solve real-world problems, not fantasy. Nothing in science has ever been created that hasn't been observed already in nature. So for all intents and purposes, N has no purpose being defined as anything that cannot be already observed in nature. Bitcoin as a global financially based supercomputer can solve real-world NP problems that single individuals have great difficulty doing so. CSW discovered that a financial system solves human problems. Adam Smith can suck it.

 

[trinoxol]

Bitmart exchange asks NY court to prevent asset transfers associated with BSV re-org attack

The filing says that following the July attack on BSV which saw malicious double spending of ‘fake’ BSV tokens, hackers were able to defraud at least 43 Bitmart customers.

coingeek.com

Not sure how this injunction against the other exchanges is supposed to work. This would mean that an exchange can't trust incoming coins. Legitimately seeming coins can be pulled back causing a loss for an innocent exchange.

This breaks fungibility.

 

[AdrianX]

If exchanges do KYC on customers who engage in larger transactions then they know who perpetrated the crime.

If they are required to do KYC for the state, then the state should support the request and enforce the law.

In the case where the criminals defrauding the exchange by using privacy coins (aka coins where you cant follow the money like monero) the options are obvious, and anonymity benefits the criminals, support it at your own risk.

re BSV, if you require 1 BTC confirmation the equivalent security would be 250 BSV confirmations, multiply by 7 for the recommended security from for the equivalent of the recommended 7 BTC confirmations. Problem solved.

People who blindly trust CSW and believe hashrate does not equal security should learn to think for themselves.

 

[79b79aa8]

@Bloomie HELP!
account farmers quote old posts in the thread to mature handles with posting activity
new modality: to google translate an old post then quote it

 

[Bloomie]

@79b79aa8 Thank you for reporting it

 

[trinoxol]

I cannot imagine that the thief has provided his correct KYC details. I have gone through multiple KYC processes. A 50 $ image forgery is all it takes.

Even if the person can be identified it's a loss to the exchange if coins are clawed back. An unworkable model.

 

[AdrianX]

KYC is effective, Governments insist on it so they can track criminals. Are you saying criminals don't use their real ID's?

You should let the lawmakers know. Why would they insist on it if it's only so the law-abiding citizens give ID to criminals who want to use someone else's ID? a criminal faking an exchange just need to ask the law-abiding citizen for their ID and say it's for KYC and it's the law you need to give me this info.

 

[trinoxol]

I think KYC serves to create a burden that prevents small criminals from doing their business. I cannot imagine a serious criminal would, for example, defraud for 10m$ and then enter their true name. Who would be so stupid?

I'm not necessarily opposed to KYC laws. But we also need to see that the government is a sprawling, self-serving bureaucracy that only ever obtains power and never releases it. It only ever becomes more.

The US has now seen 200 years of this growth and it resulted in a massive apparatus that controls 40% of the whole GDP. Germany is not dissimilar. Both countries are now driving with the parking brake engaged at all times.

 

[cbeast]

I think KYC serves to create a burden that prevents small criminals from doing their business. I cannot imagine a serious criminal would, for example, defraud for 10m$ and then enter their true name. Who would be so stupid?

I'm not necessarily opposed to KYC laws. But we also need to see that the government is a sprawling, self-serving bureaucracy that only ever obtains power and never releases it. It only ever becomes more.

The US has now seen 200 years of this growth and it resulted in a massive apparatus that controls 40% of the whole GDP. Germany is not dissimilar. Both countries are now driving with the parking brake engaged at all times.

The point is that it creates a trail of crumbs. The blockchain can be analyzed from so many angles. You will no longer be able to just send into a mixer or a file in the Caymans. Everything has a price. The freedom to do global business instantly comes with new responsibilities. Save your gubbmit bad rhetoric for election season.

 

[cypherdoc]

Tether Says Massive Reserves Held in Investment-Grade Commercial Paper

Tether Says Massive Reserves Held in Investment-Grade Commercial Paper

Tether released the most-detailed version yet of the assets backing its widely used digital currency, seeking to address regulator concerns that it hasn’t in the past disclosed enough about the currency’s underpinnings.

www.wsj.com

Post automatically merged: Aug 10, 2021

Coinbase also breaking up from it's low of 208

Post automatically merged: Aug 10, 2021

this was an obvious conclusion i came to years ago. decentralization outside of China's GFC is a good thing:

China’s Tough Stance on Crypto Mining Is a Boon for Miners Elsewhere

 

[79b79aa8]

even if tether was halfway backed and could withstand a run on the bank -- it isn't and it can't--, it poses a systemic risk to the US financial apparatus, as it distorts the monetary base and the FED's control over it. so even if no legal action is brought against it for possible past crimes, it will be made illegal going forward.

the dominoes start falling once stablecoins as we know them tip. and by the full faith and trust of the USG, they will.

 

[trinoxol]

The point is that it creates a trail of crumbs. The blockchain can be analyzed from so many angles. You will no longer be able to just send into a mixer or a file in the Caymans. Everything has a price. The freedom to do global business instantly comes with new responsibilities. Save your gubbmit bad rhetoric for election season.

You know what, cbeast? I completely agree with you (except for the last sentence ).

I think that BSV is using a very interesting tradeoff. BTC is strongly in the cypherpunk/minarchist/anarchist territory. BSV is rather strongly in statist territory.

This gives rise to a lot of interesting design decisions and very different properties.

I actually respect both viewpoints a lot.

 

[AdrianX]

I think KYC serves to create a burden that prevents small criminals from doing their business.

KYC is like an equivalent deterrent to a video camera in a store, people don't do crimes when they know someone is watching.

Criminals are not stupid, they always try to avoid incriminating themselves, the inexperienced one may seem stupid but they're just desperate with no education, and that's more a result of a state failing its people, they probably have no other option, such petty criminals also probably cant coordinate to keep an ID handy.

 

[cbeast]

KYC is like an equivalent deterrent to a video camera in a store, people don't do crimes when they know someone is watching.

Criminals are not stupid, they always try to avoid incriminating themselves, the inexperienced one may seem stupid but they're just desperate with no education, and that's more a result of a state failing its people, they probably have no other option, such petty criminals also probably cant coordinate to keep an ID handy.

That's why China has 3 cameras per person and growing. They catch billionaires too.

 

[AdrianX]

Bitcoin being plain text and pseudo-anonymous has a similar ability, when a crime is committed you can follow the money.

 

[trinoxol]

On the white paper view of hidden chains and double-spends - Bitcoin SV

The white papers view of hidden chains and double-spends. Attacks

bitcoinsv.io

Steve shadders analyzing the whitepaper with respect to the recent reorg attacks and the reaction of the miners.

 

[79b79aa8]

that attack certainly has made BSV stronger. other than shadders' there is another analysis by lin zheming (in chinese), i lost track of it, if anyone has a link, it would be interesting to read it.

in other news, the BSV chain easily digested a couple back to back ~1GB blocks with over 12k txns each a few hours ago.

 

[AdrianX]

On the white paper view of hidden chains and double-spends - Bitcoin SV

The white papers view of hidden chains and double-spends. Attacks

bitcoinsv.io

Steve shadders analyzing the whitepaper with respect to the recent reorg attacks and the reaction of the miners.

Section 2 of the white paper is the most concerning when it comes to Taal, what evidence is there that Taal does not have multiple Datacenters mining BSV and what evidence is there that all the Datacenters coordinate with Taals centralized server rather than with the bitcoin network directly. eg. it is possible that not all of Taal's hashing datacenters are mining with their Miner ID.

The necessity for public broadcast:
“The only way to confirm the absence of a transaction is to be aware of all transactions”

‘All transactions’ includes both confirmed and unconfirmed transactions.

“To accomplish this without a trusted party, transactions must be publicly announced”

This public broadcast is critical so that the subjective observations can be made by all active nodes on the network which brings us back to…

Taal consistently mines large blocks of transactions. It seems that these transactions are not broadcast to all nodes as other miners have historically not included these transactions in their blocks. It seems the first time these transactions are seen is when they are hashed into a block.

One of the ways CSW has expressed BSV miners being superior and next level to BTC miners is to process transactions for third parties eg., a Central Bank for example where a transaction is a fiat token transaction and the fees are paid in fiat, allowing BSV miners greater profit potential vs BTC miners. Such transactions may not meet the minimum requirement to be relayed to all nodes and as a result, are not witnessed until the block is broadcast.

So given the facts, I can validate, I'm not sure all the attackers are technically attacks according to Shadders's well-articulated description of the Bitcoin protocol.