Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Zangelbert Bingledack

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Aug 29, 2015
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What I was wrong about, Part 1

Fork Arbitrage and Fork Futures

1) Market maturity and timing

I assumed the market could come to the right answer in a short period of time. This was a rookie mistake. The market is always right...eventually. It can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent (Keynes); in the short term it’s a voting machine and in the long term a weighing machine (Graham). The newer the field and the more complex the question, the longer the market will take to come to the right answer. Years is clearly the minimum we can expect to wait, no matter which camp you're in.

What about the legendary accuracy of prediction markets I often invoked when pushing this idea? When the market is mature and the question is one that is frequently asked and answered, with well worn research pathways, it can indeed be produced reliably and quickly. This explains how Intrade was able to call 50 out of 50 state elections correctly. However, there is nothing remotely close to a mature market for evaluating splits on the cutting edge of cryptoledgers.

Verdict: The fork futures do serve to get a read on the speculation market result in advance, which can alert backers of each side of the split early as to the outcome if they care about immediate price, but it isn’t any kind of ultimate guide to the truth or to the most prudent path. (We've seen how hashpower minorities can in fact survive on the same algorithm; the reasons are something to detail another time as this post is overlong already.)

2) Protocols

I fell for the idea that innovation should happen on the base protocol layer itself, partly because Core led us to believe Bitcoin was very limited in what it can do and Satoshi never made much effort to argue for the rightness of his choices so it looked like maybe he had chosen Bitcoin's parameters out of a hat. The narrative was that Bitcoin was just an evolution, stepping just high enough out of the mud to be useful but with no reason to expect it was a fully formed product.

After extensive research and thought, mostly prompted by he who must not be named, it is now clear to me that Bitcoin’s design was incredibly well thought out by someone with a multi-decade perspective, far more than ample academic expertise, and plenty of real-world experience in business from various angles, who had spent two decades hellbent on building the necessary chops to solve all the problems of the previous attempts at a workable money P2P system.

Bitcoin was delivered as a well-formed product, protocol-wise (not codewise). It cannot be perfect, as nothing is, but it remains in my honest estimation 20 years ahead of anything else out there. By the time anyone catches up it will be far too late. Well before that, and arguably from the very beginning as this is money we’re talking about, the protocol needs to have been ossified so that layers can be built on top by miners and all manner of businesses for their own needs, with complete confidence that nothing - no matter how seemingly innocuous or reasonable - will shift in the ground beneath their feet. Not to mention that simple things like time-delayed transactions and deals made since Bitcoin's founding, made on the assumption of eternal stability, would get screwed over by any protocol change (note: blocksize is not part of the protocol; it's a miner acceptance Schelling point). I wrote on the utter necessity for a stable base protocol here.

Verdict: Fork arbitrage assumes the base protocol should be shifting sand to make way for "innovation." Maybe 80 years from now, as that’s the kind of timeline financial institutions operate on, miners will draw on long-range prediction market dynamics to help in determining the new protocol.

3) Law

I assumed this was cypherpunk world so law could be ignored, or that there were no applicable laws currently and they’d have to be written when the legislators catch up, by which time Bitcoin would be “too big to fail.” Turns out, essentially nothing in Bitcoin is new from a legal perspective. Digital signatures, smart contracts, common carriers (miners), copyrights, and of course design documents and partnerships (mining as rule enforcement). It's only a matter of lawyers and judges getting up to speed on how existing laws apply. An immutable evidence trail means laws can be enforced in a delayed fashion; as they always did apply, there's no special allowance needed for retroactive application.

Miners have gigantic cost-sunk operations that use tremendous power and cannot hide from governments, at least while having a remote chance at remaining profitable. They are subject to the laws of their jurisdiction for the foreseeable future. We aren’t anywhere near a cryptoanarchy nor are we even moving in that direction; but even if we were, laws still apply in any anarcho-capitalist society, and I think any here who aren’t classical liberals or minarchists are ancaps. I know of no famous ancap who wasn’t strongly pro-law and law enforcement. Do you? Any society that supports an infrastructure that spawns unstoppable criminals is a failure at being a society in the first place. Somehow ancaps forgot that law is paramount and fell into the cypherpunk dreamworld.

Time to wake up.

Miners are simply businesses trying to make a profit, with legal and compliance departments like any other business. I'm no legal expert, but I now strongly suspect it’s not as simple as miners voting to add in “any needed rules and incentives” (last sentence of the whitepaper I often used to invoke) to change the protocol any way they like; they must defend these changes in court, otherwise be - quite rightly - accused of choosing winners and losers, as that’s what all protocol changes do. You can’t mess with the foundations of a money system without rewarding some at the expense of others, and any who know of the changes in advance or have a hand in shaping them - especially the developers themselves but also rent-seekers close to them - stand to gain tremendously on this knowledge and influence.

This should have been obvious in retrospect, regardless of law. Law here just reinforces common sense, and (2) above. The protocol really is set in stone -- practically, economically, legally, and via Schelling point dynamics / Keynesian beauty contest convergence amplified by all three.

Verdict: “The nature of Bitcoin is that its protocol was set in stone at version 0.1” (Satoshi) and there can be no hard or soft “forks” of the protocol to arbitrage for at least a few generations of our descendants if we want a system that gets used by business.
 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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my assumption would be that Mempool gains exclusive use of the tx's for mining into a self constructed block, ie, other mining pools don't even get access to them within their mempools since they won't be transmitted network wide.
like i said, this was the only reasonable assumption:

We will no longer broadcast to the network, instead we will send our transactions directly to a miner that will broadcast them to the network.

https://medium.com/@sv_weather/update-new-road-ahead-b36b975857b0
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
Great writeup @Zangelbert Bingledack


Disagreements between BU and ABC are getting worse every day. Fork incoming?
I always assumed the DAA was politically motivated by nChain supporting ABC to garnish some political will, it was the only explanation I could come up with for the resulting choice. This, nor any of the other issues are fork worthy at this time.

Never the less, looking back, ABC has not reciprocated in efforts to cooperate in governing over changes to the bitcoin protocol. And I use the word "protocol" with the understanding that it is the idea, which I believe is fundamentally necessary to change the current global political paradigm leveraging bitcoin.

the protocol needs to have been ossified so that layers can be built on top by miners and all manner of businesses for their own needs,
I'm not sure why the BU BCH'ers are more inclined to follow ABC, But it's clear that ABC has been working to diminish the influence of anyone who could challenge their authority. I find this unfortunate, not fork worthy. BU has done great work. Personality clashes aside, I value @Peter R's ideas, opinions on events and scientific contributions if it weren't for him I wouldn't still be there.
[doublepost=1572643631][/doublepost]
developer hubris (not all, but most) never ceases to amaze me.
power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
 
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AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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bitco.in
It's worth noting that Tom Harding has applied his DAA to the original BCH protocol per the ABC and BSV fork. When asked he did not describe his change as a hard fork so I imagine implementation is not the barrier to adoption. I don't yet understanding the mechanism he's designed so I wont pass any judgment except for the fact I greatly respect the effort and dedication as well as the result if it lives up to expectations.
 
I hope deadalnix's incompetence and manipulative behavior will also remain uncovered by rug. Or blanket, depending on if amaury has heat yet in his flat.
Thats an old problem of experts. Their competence is very specific, for example solving rubic cubes. The wise one know this, but some fall in the hybris of thinking their one dimension expertise makes them experts for everything.

Amaury is a very special kind of phenomena. I have never seen someone leading a project acting so consistently retarded when it comes to politix and diplomatix. His actions have a very predictable results- making the ecosystem push him out. This makes me optimistic for bch.
[doublepost=1572653820,1572653105][/doublepost]But to be honest, I don't have much hope for bch, with or without Amaury. Their strategy for world domination is like trying the same failed move again and again, going back to 2012 and pushing for grassroots adoption. While btc lightning ramps up, dash doing the same for a longer time and Monero squatting darknet adoption.

It's not like I am sure bsv will succeed. Most things there are high in the clouds, sometimes making sense, sometimes not, always too far ahead of even the crypto niche of things. But at least it is something new which gives me inspiration and pushes the technology to its limits and beyond.
 

Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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"The market is always right...eventually. It can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent (Keynes); in the short term it’s a voting machine and in the long term a weighing machine (Graham)"

@Zangelbert Bingledack
Interesting reflection, as always.
Some thoughts:

In the long run, markets collapse and disappear, followed by dark ages, followed by rebirth. Is this right or wrong?

Religious view:

Abrahamit religions: "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good"

Buddhism is the opposite view: Existence (samsara) means suffering, overcoming samsara (wishes/life cycle) is the end of suffering: Nirvana.
In other words: existence is wrong, inexistence is right:

"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support (mental object). This, just this, is the end of stress (dukkha)."

Philosophers:

Leibnitz: It's the best of all possible worlds.
Schopenhauer: It's the worst of all possible worlds.

There is no consensus ...:sneaky:
 

cbeast

Active Member
Sep 15, 2015
260
299
Is Craig Wright the oldest expert on Bitcoin? It's so frustrating to listen to youngsters making a few good points, but constantly inject sophomoric opinions.99% of the blockchain space is noise. This thread is one of the few forums left with any reasonable discussion. However, once twetch or some other blockchain based app is available on mobile, I would prefer migrating to a bsv based thread.
 

Manfred

Member
Feb 1, 2019
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However, once twetch or some other blockchain based app is available on mobile, I would prefer migrating to a bsv based thread.
Well there is Weiblock.app
It costs a cent for posting, liking, reply and pics more
 
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Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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The document details that Wright “purportedly sold [his] personal intellectual property to Information Defense and Integyrs”, two of Wright’s companies.
Information Defense was created on 29 January 2009, 19 days after the mining of the first Bitcoin block, and the domain information-defense.com was registered on 23 January 2009. The domain for Integyrs.com was registered on 25 April 2009.

https://medium.com/@Bitcoin_Beyond/forensic-report-raises-questions-about-australian-tax-offices-handling-of-craig-wright-probe-138843251ef5
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
What I was wrong about, Part 2

Blocksize as a Protocol Change

Core argued that the blocksize was part of the base protocol thus could not be changed without “broad consensus” of “the experts,” by which they of course meant their self-selected group. While I correctly identified this approach as all kinds of wrong, as we all did, I missed the most fundamental error: the idea that blocksize was a protocol parameter at all. An early concept mentioned around the founding of BU, that the blocksize was an aspect of the transport layer that had snuck into the consensus layer, was actually closest to identifying this Core distortion.

The full answer only became clear when I understood the motivation behind having a protocol in the first place, and how this applies to money specifically and Bitcoin in particular.

The size of a block is one of many factors that Bitcoin’s original design left to the prediction market we call mining. As Brendan Lee recently said, Bitcoin is not a system that tries to use technology to regulate economics in technocratic fashion, but rather “an economic system that incentivizes technological progress.”

We all know the basic story: a miner keeps stuffing more fee-paying transactions into the block they are working on until they judge that the fee revenue they would gain by including another transaction in the block is outweighed by the additional risk that the majority of miners will reject it for being a bit too large for them to deem it profitable to build on. At the extremes, under high transaction load, is where it gets interesting; the miners who are well-equipped may choose to push the boundaries in search of higher fees, even knowing some miners cannot handle the load. At this bleeding edge is where the prediction market dynamics come to the fore.



As mining is a Keynesian beauty contest in blocks (every miner is trying to ascertain which block the majority of miners will prefer), there’s a reflective dynamic where miners each try to judge what other miners would think about a likely punishing of laggards. That’s why Gmax is incorrect in his old canard that larger miners will terrorize smaller miners in some runaway centralization syndrome. Miners risk to obtain more rewards, and they gain from other miners’ ill-judgment, incompetence, lack of preparedness, and even malfeasance. The end result is that the system ensures a fluid mining group that is ever better at assessing other miners’ capabilities, at connecting to them with fat pipes, and at everything else to do with network speed, coordination, and even legal compliance. Every miner error of any sort is a profit opportunity for other miners. Bitcoin as originally designed really is “an economic system that incentivizes technological progress,” and it does so on all fronts. It is a brain as Daniel Krawisz has said, getting smarter all the time.

To continue to not leave blocksize to the prediction market that is mining is to ensure Bitcoin never professionalizes and its infrastructure stays fragile and mediocre, as meditated on here. It keeps the competitive magic limited to rapidly boosting hashpower and a few aspects of networking only, rather than every aspect of the infrastructure. It essentially lobotomizes the Bitcoin brain.

With this background we can see from a new, more broadly consistent perspective why increasing the blocksize cap increase is not a protocol change. It is a miner rule, in the sense mentioned in the last sentence of the whitepaper, “Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this [proof of work] consensus mechanism.” I wrongly implied this was about protocol changes, fooled by Core’s identification of blocksize as a protocol parameter.

My error in stating the protocol must be changed, as far as blocksize, created an opening for Core to correctly respond that the protocol cannot be changed! (At least without “strong consensus,” which would actually make sense if we’re talking about sometime next century, maybe moving away from SHA256 when it is near breaking. The fact that this debate dragged on so long was a clue something was fundamentally off in our presentation of the argument; this was it.)

So what really is the Bitcoin protocol? What is the thing that cannot be changed if Bitcoin is to work? It is not blocksize and other parameters that only matter to miners. It is every parameter that matters to users - that is, the transaction rules. Users need complete confidence that a contract they entered into, some of which would have multiyear timelocks or rely on a type of opcode always remaining in effect (even if sunsetted), will never have its meaning changed by a change in the protocol. There is also a legal angle, which I have covered a year ago so won’t rehash here.

Transaction rules likewise apply to the block reward, as each reward is a transaction and of course inflation affects users. In fact it unfortunately applies even to difficulty adjustment, which means the new DAA that BCH and BSV use is a protocol change insofar as it allows turbo blocks, and it is therefore hard to defend from a legal and moral hazard view other than by saying the chain would be insecure without it. This could come back to bite investors, indeed, and it should be reverted as soon as it safely can. Nevertheless, it is not a change that breaks any smart contracts or transactions except in a very gradual sense insofar as it creates additional inflation through turbo blocks (though it should always be noted that BTC is far worse in this regard, because “inflation” in a Bitcoin context really just means additional coins going to miners beyond the Schelling point of the original block reward schedule, and I suspect the exorbitant fees due to a capped blocksize on BTC have resulted in far more of this inflation in total than on either BSV or BCH even with turbo blocks).

In a nutshell, old wallets still need to be able to understand the miners’ output, and users’ financial assumptions cannot ever shift underneath them. Not if Bitcoin is to be money and the fabric of the financial Internet, the economic Internet - which is really just the Internet as it should have always been as every action is economic whether users experience the costs (or benefits) directly or indirectly.

It’s not a matter of setting the software in stone, nor even the miner rules as a whole. Just the money aspect. Innovation can continue apace on those other (non-protocol) aspects, for eternity, while innovation on money happens on layers above the base protocol. Blocksize even now is not really capped on any coin, but investors have arranged themselves such that miners know if they break the cap on BTC without Core's blessing they’re never going to win the Keynesian beauty contest for that block. For BCH the same story applies but to a lesser extent. For BSV almost not at all (if we were to even get 2GB by organic growth anyway before early 2020, when even the notional limit is to be removed).

Verdict: I was right, and we here were all right, that blocksize isn’t really part of the protocol like Core believed, but wrong that the reason was that the protocol is “open to arbitrary changes” via miner voting (now this Core critique makes sense).
 
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Norway

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Sep 29, 2015
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@Otaci
We dug deep and made a smart card able to generate a new key pair (to not reuse keys for privacy) and sign a bitcoin transaction in 1.3 seconds.

We spent many months to bring the time down from 8 seconds to 1.3 seconds, by tweaking the built-in/native supported functions created by Visa and Mastercard.

The French company Ledger tried this before us and failed.

We also defined the protocol and documented it like nothing in bitcoin has ever been documented.

https://kaching.cards/katp.pdf

BIP270 is currently a joke compared to this documentation and is defined by what Ryan X Charles thinks at some point in time.

We're very proud of what we have achieved. Yet, VC investors don't understand the significance of our work.

Now, everyone shouts that smart cards are the perfect use-case for "True SPV". And that we are apparently doing it wrong because our protocol doesn't include Merkle proofs for inputs.

Craig Wright has written about it. The Merkle proofs prevents spam attacks, not double spends. And it makes sense.

But who is defended from spam attacks by requiring Merkle proofs? Merchants or miners? That is not clear.

So, a merchant is never ever under a spam/dos attack from customers tapping their card in a face to face trade.

Therefore, it makes much more sense to me to provide Merkle proofs for internet trades, not physical card trades.

To me, it seems like proponents of cards sharing Merkle proofs have no idea of the fact that the Merkle path of a tx is not reliable until at least 6 blocks after it was done. And they have no good UX. And that they are just parroting CSW without understanding what he is saying, and reading wrong between the lines.

Our KaChing model just works. You don't have to sync your card with your phone 1 hour after you sent or received money to load it with Merkle proofs. And you don't have to do the silly exercise of a merchant updating a card with Merkle proofs 1 second before the card sends the Merkleproof back to the merchant. That would be insane!

If anyone in nChain is working on smart cards, I'd really like to get in touch with them @Otaci (y)