Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

cypherblock

Active Member
Nov 18, 2015
163
182
Alienating Emin by calling selfish mining theory cancer? For some weird reason csw shot against selfish mining as early as spring 2016, on the site he put on after his outening, long offline. Why?
Odd fact: Steve Shadders (nChain head of solutions and engineering), got his position by taking up a challenge by Craig to prove/disprove selfish mining theory. He was supposed to setup a rigorous way to simulate SM using modified bitcoin nodes and run it in some kind of testnet. Steve never published any results of his simulations.

Interestingly I also had some interest in this "contest". IMO, Craig has been consistently wrong on SM theory (even posting a paper on SSRN that in fact proves SM theory works, despite Craig's conclusions opposite), but I always sort of hoped he could be correct and something in the details made it fail. Probably the best argument for Craig being part of Satoshi team is that he says such stupid things sometimes you actually want to spend time showing him the truth. It sort of makes me believe Scronty's story. But most of the time I think Craig is just an ass.
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
IMO, Craig has been consistently wrong on SM theory (even posting a paper on SSRN that in fact proves SM theory works, despite Craig's conclusions opposite), but I always sort of hoped he could be correct and something in the details made it fail.
The map doesn't fit with the terrain. Is there something wrong with the map, or the terrain?
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
Contradictions aren't arguments. Your method of sowing discord is sad. Please try to say something interesting.
There was no argument. I was being told I had blinders on. I responded as was warranted.

Though if I knew what was going to come out of the BSV camp in the last couple of days, I wouldn't have bothered. my gentle prods pale in comparison.
 

bsdtar

New Member
Apr 1, 2019
20
52
the only thing stupid here is claiming SM works ; despite 10.5 yrs of not a single example.
Yeah, nice logic fallacy there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance). Anyway, I believe miners would exploit the time-warp bug before going the SM route for increased profits. We also haven't seen it in 10.5 yrs, yet the bug is still there and miners could show some interest after a few more halvings, knowing the market could handle a larger inflation rate at current price levels. Users could actually welcome the increased network throughput!
[doublepost=1560244384,1560243749][/doublepost]
I like the move to output scripts instead of addresses. I remember from the P2SH discussions that it was "wrong" for the sender to bear the fees of an unreasonable sized requested output script. Oddly enough, fees were also 1sat/byte back then.

I was wondering how BSV would displace P2SH and have similar/better UX. Paymail seems to fit the purpose nicely.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
If anyone is curious about what has become of my libertarian views, this transaction contains a pretty good summary. Government vs. anti-government isn't the issue. Light vs. dark is the issue.

I am not religious, but it's interesting that Jesus Christ as an ideal was to be the paragon of light and of individualism, and taking some clues from Jordan Peterson's conception of religion as metaphor I contend these are the real bases for Western capitalism and all that has generally been called a free society in the libertarian tradition.

When Ryan X. Charles said Craig Wright is the second coming of Jesus Christ and then decided that wasn't literally true, I think he was grappling the same confusion Sam Harris faced in his debate with Peterson, and he dimly understand that religious truth is about the power of metaphor. The tradition of law and order goes back further, to Judaism, and indeed Adam Smith and others installed some of the final pieces of the capitalist ideal, which is underpinned by the legal, moral, and cultural traditionals of Western civilization, which in turn sprung from or were codified partly in Judeo-Christian traditions and ideals. Craig just turned the principles into a truth machine.

https://www.bitpaste.app/tx/58bcc6e401861fe36888f969ec8596987676e9248e3ce318b514ef9862ee5600
Cypherpunks want to keep governments from shutting down Bitcoin by hiding in anonymity. What they never understood is that Bitcoin lives and dies by the economics. A widespread ban kills the economics, thus kills Bitcoin.

Incentives are the key to survival. It MUST appeal to government.

This says nothing about the desirability of government, only about reality. Bitcoin fits into all major legal traditions like a glove. Governments will love it even as it shrinks them.

Bitcoin is Capitalismfinger. It turns everything it touches to capitalism.

Satoshi solved the Byzantine generals problem via economics, not cryptography. Satoshi also solved governance by economics, not cryptography.

Hold onto your hats. We’re entering a world where capitalism permeates every fiber of society. This is the 4th Industrial Revolution.

Governments will be too addicted to the tax money coming from all the increased productivity driven by Bitcoin to ever think of banning it. But to get there Bitcoin must stay in its original common-law-friendly form with transparent ledger and privacy via pseudonymity, not anon.

Crime (including gov corruption) is another problem Satoshi solves by economics, not cryptography. Via risk and cost functions, not absolutes.

In Bitcoin world, crime always leaves traces and can be tracked down at cost. But the pseudonymity prohibits mass surveillance, by cost.

It’s the kind of solution a cypherpunk would never see, and the one that any leftover trace of the cypherpunk mentality of “shrouding the world in darkness through technology” stops you from seeing.

Light, not dark, is the libertarian path. “Sunshine is the best disinfectant.”
The end result of Bitcoin’s combination of privacy and transparency is that minor lawbreaking goes unnoticed but true evil can always be found and rooted out.

It’s a world, in short, where crime doesn’t pay. Whether you are a criminal inside or outside the government.

It’s a world where the $5 wrench attack fails because justice is done for all crimes of consequence (within government as well), but where minor infractions are not economically worth law enforcement pursuing, and where widespread surveillance is prohibitively expensive.

Satoshi said Bitcoin is capitalism in code form, and capitalism is a product of Western cultural traditions of respect for property rights, which themselves are codified in thousands of years of customary legal tradition evolved through group selection on the market of societies.

Bitcoin embodies Western liberalism, a.k.a. the classical liberal or libertarian values that are the evolved precondition, the fertile soil of moral sentiments as explained by Adam Smith in his lesser known companion book to the Wealth of Nations, from which capitalism sprung.

The tradition of justice via transparency goes back at least to the ancient Greek story of the Ring of Gyges, the ring that lets one plunder society with impunity, unseen. Anonymity is that ring. Sunshine with privacy is the exact opposite.

Bitcoin’s combination of sunshine with privacy, with enforcement driven by economics, means everything is investigable but requires old-fashioned police work. Information must be compelled from certain parties, always at a cost.

The beautiful result is that broad snooping becomes much more impractical than it is today, yet targetted investigation of career criminals becomes much easier. This is how it should be. A world that is both more private and more just.

And a government that is fully auditable.

The tiny dot that is government cannot run and hide from prying eyes, but a million moms and pops paying their help under the table probably aren’t ever going to be found. Not because they can’t be, but because it simply isn’t worth investigating.

Economics, not absolutes.

Security is a risk function. Justice is economic. Everything runs by incentives. Satoshi’s vision fitting into Western legal tradition like a glove has a deeper significance than most realize: not only does it require no new laws to allow its use, Bitcoin is capitalism incarnate.

Satoshi identified the 3 key strands of Western civilization that made it work: individual property rights (economics), transparency, and privacy.

He built Bitcoin in Western tradition’s image, so that Bitcoin embodies AND enforces these ideals. Truly capitalism in code form.

Thus Bitcoin is both a technology and a thesis that Satoshi has advanced.

Such a finely tuned machine, such an epitomization of the best of Western ideals, was immediately pissed all over by the cypherpunks, from the mailing list’s James A. Donald onward.

From the transparency to the huge scale, from the economic incentives driving the highly interconnected node (= miner!) network shape and the security of instant transactions to the design’s deep awareness of common-law precepts around money, fraud, and tracing - all was suspect.

All were suspect and systematically dismantled by Core, and later others tried to go further afield. Everyone missed the beating heart of capitalism underpinned by Western justice and rights at Bitcoin’s center. The bumbling errors were mimicked, the vision lost in the shuffle.

Enter Craig Wright, or rather re-enter Satoshi Nakamoto, named after Tominaga Nakamoto whose writings about Western capitalism helped usher in a new era for Japan. Capitalism is an idea that enriches everything it touches, and Bitcoin IS capitalism in code form.

As such, like capitalism itself, Bitcoin is its own adoption machine. Governments will want it just as badly. It turns capitalism from an idea and a practice in law and society, to a technology that spreads like wildfire, not only to all countries but to all aspects of life.

It expands the scope of win-win interactions that are possible in society, vastly improving the world. This is why Bitcoin is the 4th Industrial Revolution. It isn’t just a catchphrase.

It can only do this at scale, transparently, upholding law and order as it was designed to.

Once you understand this, you see that Bitcoin SV is the only player on the field. It has been driving toward the goal by relentlessly building for years, while all the others are off exploring the parking lot.
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
>Yeah, nice logic fallacy there

@bsdtar

I can see you're a noob here. how many times do I have to tell the story of attending a 2014 conference where Sirer tried to once again shove his pedantic pseudo academic theory down the throats of the Bitcoin community in his bald face attempt to be a relevant expert in the space? I cornered him after the talk in front of a group of people, looked him in the eye, and saw fear when i forced him to admit the severe economic consequences of failing to timely release the 2 hidden block attack in an attempt to orphan the competing honest chain . he admitted that the attacking miner would need to have the assistance of a listening spy node somehow connected directly to the very miner that released the next honest block . the likelihood of having that is nil and the economic consequences of executing such an attack would not only likely fail due to timing but also result in immediate expulsion from what we now know (and I intuited even back then) is a small world network. the poor man was shaking in his shoes at the thought of risking a single block that was only worth $10-12k at the time when I asked him if he had attempted this IRL. now, they're worth how much on top of being expelled by the mining community for attempting this stupidity?

so no, this 10.5y absence argument is not some logical fallacy but a real life rebuttal to a pseudo academic theory that has no place in a an economic environment driven by incentives and consequences .
 
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If anyone is curious about what has become of my libertarian views, this transaction contains a pretty good summary. Government vs. anti-government isn't the issue. Light vs. dark is the issue.

I am not religious, but it's interesting that Jesus Christ as an ideal was to be the paragon of light and of individualism, and taking some clues from Jordan Peterson's conception of religion as metaphor I contend these are the real bases for Western capitalism and all that has generally been called a free society in the libertarian tradition.

When Ryan X. Charles said Craig Wright is the second coming of Jesus Christ and then decided that wasn't literally true, I think he was grappling the same confusion Sam Harris faced in his debate with Peterson, and he dimly understand that religious truth is about the power of metaphor. The tradition of law and order goes back further, to Judaism, and indeed Adam Smith and others installed some of the final pieces of the capitalist ideal, which is underpinned by the legal, moral, and cultural traditionals of Western civilization, which in turn sprung from or were codified partly in Judeo-Christian traditions and ideals. Craig just turned the principles into a truth machine.

https://www.bitpaste.app/tx/58bcc6e401861fe36888f969ec8596987676e9248e3ce318b514ef9862ee5600
In case you forget the transaction id of this great post, I put the handle "blog" on it. You can find it when you go on metahandle.net and crawl for the handle "blog".
 
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Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
>Yeah, nice logic fallacy there

@bsdtar

I can see you're a noob here. how many times do I have to tell the story of attending a 2014 conference[...]
While I agree that SM is definitely overstated and your anecdote makes interesting reading, the point that bsdtar was addressing, that something hasn't happened yet therefore it won't ever happen is, indeed, a fallacy. Especially since it seems that miners are a pretty passive bunch. They seem to be happy to rent warehouses, fill them with mining machines, make contracts with electric companies then just leave things running as the money rolls in. Hence BTC :(. It seems to be working for them though and you're correct about the incentives.
 
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cypherblock

Active Member
Nov 18, 2015
163
182
the only thing stupid here is claiming SM works ; despite 10.5 yrs of not a single example.
The theory as written is accurate but in practice it is a costly attack that other miners may react to as you mentioned in your other post. However CSW continues to think that even the theory itself is flawed without even the need to consider how miners would react to it, etc. Most of this stems from the fact that CSW ignores the fact that SM attack is profitable only after difficulty has adjusted for it. So he analyses it in the pre-difficulty adjustment realm and says "it doesn't work", when in fact it was never claimed to be profitable in that realm (and by the way it the profits do in fact far exceed the costs while waiting for difficulty to adjust). This entire paper https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3151923 shows this flawed thinking.

By knowing it is theoretically possible miners could in fact prepare methods of detecting SM attacks (check orphan rates) and have appropriate responses available. It would actually be good to see what all those responses are and if there are in fact effective.

As for whether it was every done in history, there was some mention of a selfish mining attack on Mona coin some time back, but whether this was a true SM attack of the form described in Sirer's paper or was some simpler form of attack was unclear.

Anyway I wasn't really trying to open up a whole debate on SM, but glad to go there if you want. Mostly my point was this: CSW is often dead wrong, but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of the Satoshi team. But It does indicate, to me at least, that he had a lot of help if he was part of it at all.
 

cbeast

Active Member
Sep 15, 2015
260
299
The whole debate about attack vectors (like SM, UASF, MITM, etc.) is about distribution algorithms, not the protocol. The protocol is sound, but miners still need to do their job, and not sit around expecting competition to do the same. There isn't justification to attack the protocol creator, because the incentives for everyone to do their jobs are already there. As the block reward diminishes, those incentives become clearer. SM becomes less rewarding, UASF (small block) loses effectiveness to market forces, and miners take charge of their connectivity. It's all about making more in fees than the block reward itself.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
and a simple reminder that no miner is going to invest tens or hundreds of millions in hardware only to turn around and attack the protocol that every other participant in the space knows they were tasked to secure. otherwise everyone just sells the price to zero.
 
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Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
We have a private chat we use. What dev group doesnt?
That's what I suspected. 'Activity' on a subchain. No involvement in public discussion/development onchain.

@cypherdoc
no miner is going to invest tens or hundreds of millions in hardware only to turn around and attack the protocol
Yes, in theory all sorts of academic fantasies can be successful on the market. But the economic reality is a completely different story.
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
it's truly gratifying to see all our objections to offchain scaling coming to fruition. an altcoin? no conflict there.
[doublepost=1560342804,1560341740][/doublepost]"href="https://t.co/vfgEBKw4dL">pic.twitter.com/vfgEBKw4dL</a></p>&mdash; ViaBTC (@ViaBTC) <a href="
 
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Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
Remind me again why I haven't dumped my remaining BTC yet?
I think there's one last rally in it yet. During which, the insanity of the 1MB blocks size limit will be fully cemented.

It's going to take some careful timing to not be leaving funds on an exchange for too long but also, not to get caught in the stampede when fees get crazy.

[doublepost=1560344366][/doublepost]
it's truly gratifying to see all our objections to offchain scaling coming to fruition. an altcoin? no conflict there.
They've ruined BTC Bitcoin *and* Lightning Network which, to my recollection was originally slated to be a lightweight way to implement low-value micropayments.
 
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