Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
I believe the most divisive issue in Bitcoin Unlimited is if the consensus rules should be set in stone or developed/improved by BU.

The topic is not debated much here. I welcome the developers and members to shed some light on what they think about this issue and why, because I think it's important for BU's path forward.
 

bitsko

Active Member
Aug 31, 2015
730
1,532
BU is your show zerg, I don't think there ever was a dynamic here to make someone develop what they didn't want to.

Ultimately I hope everyone can see that the only way to avoid endless governance battles is to set the protocol, but it's quite popular right now to demand BSV associated folks 'speak out' against Craig Wright.

It's not something I care to do, the character assasinations are mostly how the BTC herd is guided down the straight and narrow path.

To demand social cohesion in line with a character assasination going on since 2015 or earlier is the epitome of collectivism and the opposite of a trade enhancing capitalist technology in my view.

Asking someone to code on something they dislike is futile anyways.

Don't libel, don't get sued. Libel, apologise, don't get sued.

If you can, alongside BTC and the rest, manage to expel BSV - then I suppose you win the multicoin collectivist prize.

If social ostracism against BSV is shown to be futile, than the world has a chance to win the best the technology can offer- that of a money beyond the typical power struggles.
[doublepost=1556053543][/doublepost]Let me add that the dreamiest core narrative at present is the coming BSV fork that excludes craig wright.
 

theZerg

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 28, 2015
1,012
2,327
I don't dislike BSV. I dislike the actions of a few individuals who are generally recognized as leaders of BSV.

Dismissing what happened as a character assassination ignores the large number of independent and independently verified discoveries of poor technical/crypto knowledge, poor knowledge of bitcoin source code details, and repeated instances of plagiarism. And what completely rejects the "character assassination" theory is that many of these observations originated from people who were once allies, when they were allied.

It would help me if someone maintained or linked to a list of arguments/proofs on the "is" side just like somebody is doing on the "no" side. I can't think of a single one, except ironically the "scronty" narrative (which is itself apocryphal so no proof).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Richy_T

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
Andrew, even if CSW is a fraud (my estimation of this has decreased back down to 50:50), what is wrong with the theory of the BSV community being able to hard fork away from him if and when the need arises in the future after it gains traction?

btw, i think it would be important for BU to maintain a BU-BSV version going forward to continue to hold BSV accountable as a viable alternative if and when CSW makes a bad move in the BSV implementation.
 

79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
> what is wrong with the theory of the BSV community being able to hard fork away from him if and when the need arises in the future after it gains traction?

that theory assumes BSV will introduce some rule that can't be lived with, and the fork stays with the present BSV ruleset. but introducing some new rule is decidedly not what they are doing, nor in any way signaling they intend to do it, nor can one foresee it would make sense for them to do it.

instead, they have explicitly stated this principle: a system is bitcoin only if a hypothetical bitcoin transaction from the genesis block continues being valid in that system (note this is a necessary, not a sufficient condition).

the principle makes sense: if someone had made a timelocked bitcoin tx with the rules that were in place at the beginning, a system in which that tx isn't valid cannot claim being bitcoin. or perversely it can claim being bitcoin, but then it cannot claim to be money.

now the possibility exists that the BSV team goes rogue and ignores everything they've said and done and changes the system. the possibility also exists that it is all some bewilderingly elaborate pump and dump.

except they are investing dozens of millions of dollars in mining, development, infrastructure, IP (the latter in a deliberate, complex, carefully deployed strategy that goes back for years). they are investing in exchanges and payment processors that can integrate with forex and stock exchanges, in terms of both volume and compliance. they are not going around selling the coin to anyone, nor engaging in speculation, nor even promoting its mom and pop adoption, but rather preparing the software for scale and cleaning up the protocol consistently with the above mentioned principle.

as far as i can see these verifiable actions make both the rogue or scam possibilities exceedingly unlikely.

> i think it would be important for BU to maintain a BU-BSV version going forward to continue to hold BSV accountable as a viable alternative if and when CSW makes a bad move in the BSV implementation.

i think it would be important for BU to maintain a BU-BSV version going forward in order to stay in the game.
 
Last edited:

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
agreed, but we have to satisfy the most extreme position of the skeptics.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
Another more lucid CSW video today, explaining some of the content of a patent or two from among the hundreds they've filed:

blockchain that is full of parasitic patent bullcrap
Note that 1) no nChain patent application yet seen seems to be patenting any part of the original Bitcoin protocol, nor by extension any of BSV; and 2) no nChain patent application yet seen is specific to any blockchain, which means their patents are legally considered to apply to all blockchains. Whatever patent hell may apply to BSV most definitely also applies BTC and BCH, except worse in that the patent holder is interested in actively thwarting those coins.
In recent month I explained the privacy thing two times in front of an audience which mostly laughs about 'faketoshi' Partly I even used terms from Craig.

And you know what happens? Everyone totally agreed and found my presentation very insightful.

So ... People agree with Craig as long as they don't know that he said it.
The power of our preconceptions to blind us to what is right in front of our faces is truly incredible.
now the possibility exists that the BSV team goes rogue and ignores everything they've said and done and changes the system. the possibility also exists that it is all some bewilderingly elaborate pump and dump.

except they are investing dozens of millions of dollars in mining, development, infrastructure, IP (the latter in a deliberate, complex, carefully deployed strategy that goes back for years). they are investing in exchanges and payment processors that can integrate with forex and stock exchanges, in terms of both volume and compliance. they are not going around selling the coin to anyone, nor engaging in speculation, nor even promoting its mom and pop adoption, but rather preparing the software for scale and cleaning up the protocol consistently with the above mentioned principle.
Again and again, the blindingly obvious is so hard to get people to look at.
@rocks Keeping with the theme of this post, your comment about Core adding changes that broke Bitcoin and then declaring it can't scale reminded me of this:



Core have raised a dust and every altcoin is running around in the dense and massive dust storm they created, trying to build on debris that was never supposed to be there in the first place.
The message of BSV is crystal clear: 1) return to the Bitcoin 0.1 design in terms of functionality, 2) etch in solid rock, 3) build on top.

The protocol is open and immutable; on top is total corporate, boring (for most), professional, plumbing for turning everything socialist about the Internet capitalist. The scope of market interactions extended to every fiber. There will be patents, lawsuits, big business, regulators - the same as any other industry.

The protocol itself is carefully designed to remain untouchable by all these forces, while on top we see the real world as it exists in the present day play out as Bitcoin permeates into all aspects of life as the unseen ghost in the global economic machine.
 
Last edited:
I don't dislike BSV. I dislike the actions of a few individuals who are generally recognized as leaders of BSV.

Dismissing what happened as a character assassination ignores the large number of independent and independently verified discoveries of poor technical/crypto knowledge, poor knowledge of bitcoin source code details, and repeated instances of plagiarism. And what completely rejects the "character assassination" theory is that many of these observations originated from people who were once allies, when they were allied.

It would help me if someone maintained or linked to a list of arguments/proofs on the "is" side just like somebody is doing on the "no" side. I can't think of a single one, except ironically the "scronty" narrative (which is itself apocryphal so no proof).
Andrew, I am well aware of all the 'faketoshi' facts. I would have given up on him long ago if there where not ..

1) holes in the faketoshi theory, like how could he make his story against Gavin Andresen despite Gavin having access to unpublished mails with Satoshi? Or the still unexplained live signature ... Or the lack of a fraud business model (he burns money instead of getting it) and a behavior often completely irrational for 'faketoshi' (with the result that up to Noone believes him) ...

2) a lot of live demonstrations of an original understanding of the system on slack, reddit, Twitter and so on. I am not a technical expert, but I have a good knowledge, and for me he often falsified the 'poor technical knowlegde' thesis in real time with surprising arguments which made sense after thinking about

3) a very substantiated vision about bitcoin, brought up with a consistency over the years which is unseen in the ecosystem, regarding scaling (small world), privacy, scripts and much more.

4) proof of work: he founded a development team, a mining pool, gave vision for a lot of people, made hundreds of patent applications, invested in a lot of companies, and was the force behind creating the biggest blocks ever published in a live version of Bitcoin.

This are things that count against the faketoshi thesis and make me undecided, despite all the hints to faketoshi ...

In the end I am where I have been since years: I accept the fact that he can be faketoshi but still have a healthy influence over bitcoin.

Are core scammer? Probably not (the blockstream business model is very similar to the assumed nchain fraud business model). Did core fuck up bitcoin? Probably yes.

Are ABC scammers? No. Did they fuck up bitcoin cash? Probably yes. At least I am hardly attracted by their vision.

Are ETH devs scammer? No. But they created the ground for thousands of scammer. Are Ripple founders scammer? Probably not. But they created the worst crypto system you can imagine. Are IOTA founders scammers? No. But their product is (unintendely) more scam than BSV can ever be ...

Is csw a fraud? Maybe. Did he fuck up bsv? No. He put bitcoin on the track which is by far most attractive for me.

If you can't get over the 'faketoshi' story, it's OK. I will never accuse or insult you for what you spend your time with. I will also not vote for bitcoin unlimited supporting bsv when you don't want to support it.

But please... Try to ask what you want to achieve with bitcoin and try to resist putting it down to one person.
 
Last edited:

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
@theZerg

I love you man.

You gave birth to the BU organization with a vision that bitcoin is more than developers. And you have improved bitcoin a lot after that. You're a good guy to me, no doubt about it. You may or may not have been the greatest beer sponsor when I launched the first Bitcoin Cash meetup in the world. Donations are anonymous. Great success! (y)

You want to improve bitcoin. I know this 100%. You are honest, no doubt.

But I have to be blunt:
I am a superior protocol developer compared to you.

The last year, me and my buddies have made the KaChing protocol. We have learned our lesson from bitcoin. We don't have a version numbers.

We did not release anything until it was finished. Now it is. It's set in stone. And we documented the protocol on a bit level that bitcoin itself has never been documented. Read it here:
https://kaching.cards/katp.pdf

A global protocol is not like a mobile app that auto-updates whenever the devs feel like it.

A protocol should be made for eternity, and replaced when the time is right. Like TCP/IP.

In BCH, you can "do good" by negotiating with Amaury and play the game of percieved future hashpower backing while trading the features you prefer with your counterparties. But the fact that there are 2, 3 or 4 parties trading features does NOT make it "decentralized". It makes everything centralized.

In BSV, you have no influence over the protocol, Andrew. nChain is steering the protocol like a boss by restoring things back to Bitcoin 0.1. They use all the weapons they can get their hands on to get to this point. They fight.

When they win this fight, they will not have any power over the protocol anymore. The patents will still be there for a few years to fend off competing moneyprinters. But the power to define the protocol will be gone.

Yes, we have to change the cryptography at some point. It will be an international issue. We'll just have to deal with it.

I hope you can let go of your desire to steer the protocol in "the right direction". You could end up as the sexy version of Luke Dashjr.

BU should throw away and burn the dry and dusty laurels of scaling, and kick nChain ass in the future!

Do it!
 

theZerg

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 28, 2015
1,012
2,327
When I joined the bitcoin effort in 2012 a rosy picture was painted of pseudo-anonymous, uncensorable, irreversible, borderless p2p money interacting with almost no friction with other instruments that contain those same properties such as land titles, stocks and bonds (all types of tokens) via potentially complex rules (smart contracts) on many types of devices (smart property).

How did we get from there to "let's just use the blockchain for payments of one currency and leave everything else to other layers that cannot provide these same properties with the same efficiency"?

How can you look at a scripting language that is useless and not realize that more was intended? My efforts are to complete a project in the direction clearly indicated by the code. I'm not suggesting some huge wart on top like Lightning. This points directly at you "L2" guys: there is a stronger argument that many of these "L2" ideas, like creating a whole separate contracting language when one already exists in L1, are not in the original spirit of Bitcoin if you look at what exists in the code.

Look at the CrescentCash that everyone is excited about today on r/btc since it integrated with SLP tokens. Its readme says that its a non-custodial wallet. I didn't look any deeper. It basically has to be that or insecure because you can't prove that SLP tokens are legitimate without being a full node (or trusting one).

Clearly Satoshi was a fan of SPV (its in the white paper), IDK what he said about tokens off the top of my head all I know is in 2012 they were presented as a done deal since BTC dust could represent them. But there is a bug in that: BTC dust as tokens don't work with SPV. My work with tokens simply fixed that in the simplest way possible.

The SV blessed token system is centralized and permissioned. Does that sound like the beginning of the white paper? It is not fundamentally different than what we had 20 years ago. And it will be a market failure. Any "token" that wants that will use existing "respectable" channels (i.e. normal stocks/bonds), any other token will want something else and use Ethereum.

-----

WRT CSW's strange relationship to Bitcoin, I actually think that the scronty posts have a ring of truth to them, although completely unproven. CSW, personality wise, is a real match for [1] which puts him in the role of project managing Bitcoin's never-released progenitor. It was described as a digital currency with no innovations and certainly none that caused bitcoin to succeed -- essentially a centralized system like all digital currency attempts before it. Based on the post, scronty then "started over" (but I bet he reused a lot) completely reworking the system and adding Bitcoin's fundamental insight -- bitcoin's economic solution to the distributed consensus problem, and inviting [1] and [2] (Kleiman maybe?) to follow along and help out. When I first read the post I thought scronty had a big ego and maybe he was overstating how much he rearchitected and added the fundamental insights...

But the narrative explains subsequent events. It explains nChain's focus on centralized L2 solutions (because that's what CSW's original coin was all about). It explains how CSW could hold statist principles yet bitcoin be heavily libertarian in philosophy, and it explains how CSW might really have convinced himself that he deserves the Satoshi credit (for starting the thing that although completely reworked, ultimately was released as Bitcoin) without ever really understanding fundamental software details, or theoretical insights, and without believing in the fundamental libertarian philosophical difference that made it compelling in the modern economic environment. It does not explain why he can't sign a GPG or some early coins though. But at this point he's suggested so many broken ideas and provably wrong stuff in the code base (like the running out of opcode space gaff) that even if he does someday sign something, it'll only convince people that he was peripherally involved.
 
Last edited:

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
@theZerg
Thanks for totally ignoring my reachout to you. /s

I don't trust you as an expert on bitcoin script, because you sold me the false idea that DSV was necessary to "bump phones" making a bet based on a oracle not aware of the bet.

I voted for your proposal. You got my vote, based on a lie.

Later, I did my own research, and proved it can be done without DSV in a small, compact script.

In fact, the native signature check in DSV can be done in a compact way when nChain bring bignumbers back from history.

You're getting arrogant.
 

79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
on a different thread, i asked @freetrader if he thought a dynamic blocksize limit effectively counters the fidelity effect.
Depends on the proposed algorithm.
obviously that's the start of any answer -- but only the start. there seem to be two leading proposals: BIP101 and Assymetric Moving Blocksize. both turn on the idea that adoption occurs gradually, and keep capacity ahead. but is there not another possibility, that capacity is a precondition for adoption? is it not at least possible that certain types of usecase only are viable if the capacity exists ex ante (e.g., perhaps, automated micro trading on forex)? what then?
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
It's good to know a lot of the anti-CSW sentiment is based on pure misconception.

Many of these are easy to clear up, such as that Craig isn't libertarian. He's not an anarchist, but neither did I ever think Satoshi was (always struck me as a Randian). Craig will emphasize whatever he currently sees as the main failing of the common narrative. If it's complete anonymity and anarchy or ignoring the fact that the world as it currently exists is heavily reliant on law, he'll rail against that. Have we forgotten that even Murray Rothbard himself, Mr. Anarcho-Capitalism, was pro-intellectual property? That Ron Paul is a congressman? That Mises was strongly pro-state and worked in bureaucracies? Nothing about pursuing patents or libel suits would be seen as objectionable to most libertarians before the 1990s or so. Rothbard paid his taxes. He was never extreme enough to suggest you could just totally ignore the existing state and legal systems.

As to tokens such as stocks, there's no such thing as one without a centralized issuer. The whole point of a stock is centralized issuance.
When I joined the bitcoin effort in 2012 a rosy picture was painted of pseudo-anonymous, uncensorable, irreversible, borderless p2p money interacting with almost no friction with other instruments that contain those same properties such as land titles, stocks and bonds (all types of tokens) via potentially complex rules (smart contracts) on many types of devices (smart property).
Craig has a nuanced view of anonymity and privacy, which @Christoph Bergmann just mentioned. It is indeed psuedo-anonymous. Bitcoin complies with centuries-old common and civil (and Shariah) law because of its original design choices; changing them willy-nilly undoes all that hard-won subtlety. Satoshi never claimed (in fact specifically denied) that Bitcoin was above law, anti-state, or even anti-bank (the genesis block "Chancellor on Brink" article was warning about the nationalization of banks). He used the word anonymous but loosely, and he also decried the pushing of Bitcoin as anonymous money. Even someone like Rothbard could see that that would just prompt the government banhammer.

Uncensorable comes from mining competition. To imply this is different in BSV would be yet another myth.

Irreversible - again, completely the same in BSV. Tokens for stocks, etc. are for working within a centralized company model, and no corporation now existing in any advanced country is going to issue stock on a token that doesn't have regulatory compliance considerations baked in.

Maybe Bitcoin will someday cause the state to wither away, but it is certainly not this day, not this generation even. Practicalities of law cannot just be flaunted. The fallacy here arises from believing Bitcoin was already illegal or in the government crosshairs. This is a myth others propagated, myself included. It is not something Satoshi ever said or implied, and Bitcoin's design - very unlike any other coin I know of - goes out of its way to comply with longstanding law that is quasi-universal in advanced countries. There's again a reason Bitcoin is nowhere-banned, unlike, say Monero, which Japan is moving to ban for the obvious AML reasons.

Designing with the existing order in mind means recognizing that stocks need to be able to be invalidated by the issuer, etc. What's the point then? Just efficiency. Not anarcho-utopia. Not today at least. On the other hand, while that's not what nChain, Tokenized, etc. are building, Bitcoin script is highly general (as Satoshi pointed out) and thus can be used for essentially anything, even things CSW doesn't agree with. Darkweb organizations might try issuing stock as well, but Bitcoin isn't specifically designed to facilitate that, for again obvious reasons of law.

Craig also likes to point out that a judge can always repudiate (i.e., reverse) a transaction. Not on the chain, but in law. As mentioned above, Craig harps on what people are not getting. Sometimes too much. To a socialist he would do the opposite and sound like a minarchist. Nothing strange here: he's a classical liberal, a libertarian close to the Austrian tradition economically with identity aspects stemming substantially from Ayn Rand.

Whether or not you think script can do it all, it's still a strawman to suggest Craig is against any of the smart contract, smart property, or generalized token functionality. Even DSV and others are doable in script, is his position, and it is especially strange to point to this one as several others independently reached the same conclusion.

If you read the man himself rather than what tiny cherrypicked crumbs reach Reddit, you'll see all this is true. Not the claims, which take insight and expertise to verify, but the positions. Most of his positions are readily apparent after having read a lot of his work (though even that takes a few weeks to do). Much misunderstanding could be avoided just by reading 30 or so of CSW's recent Medium articles and watching a few of his interviews and presentations. It would raise many more questions and many new contentions, but a bunch of the existing myths would be put to rest.
 
Last edited:

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
Here's a quick-and-dirty overview of the three ideologies I see, revealed by a question.

"What does Bitcoin stand for and what are its realities?"

Ask this question to someone calling themself a bitcoiner.

The more of the following they reply with, the more they sound like a BCH supporter:

- Community
- Everything being free and open source
- Anonymity, "kill all evidence trails"
- "Law? Hah, that's a real kneeslapper!"
- "In fact, code is law"
- Goldiblocks [centrally planned "just right" sized blocks]
- Just cash, no "filecoin"
- Friendship with all coins
- "Information wants to be free"
- "A living protocol" / "Gotta let devs dev"
- "Evading the state because the state wants to kill Bitcoin because Bitcoin evades the state because the state wants to kill Bitcoin because it evades the state because..." (circular argument)
- Moar opcodes
- Scaling by devs, don't stress test until we're ready

These replies sound like BTC supporters or many BCH supporters:

- "We need more full nodes"
- "Can't trust miner incentives, trust us self-selected 'technical experts'"
- Cypherpunk=saint

In contrast, the more of these they reply with, the more they sound like a BSV supporter:

- Community Economy
- Patents are reality...compete!
- Bitcoin is immutable evidence; sunshine curbs corruption
- Law matters
- Code is not law; for the foreseeable future it just streamlines procedure
- Terabyte+ blocks, no limit, leave to miners
- Metanet, a bitcoin tx in every packet, "Information hates free!" -Craig
- Set protocol in stone, dev on top
- Protocol "innovations" are the cancer in Bitcoin, devs-gotta-dev syndrome (build on top instead!)
- Bitcoin is designed to work within longstanding and globally quasi-universal law, so there are no grounds for governments to ban to it
- Nodes=miners, "tons of full nodes"=sybil
- There Can Be Only One
- "Miners can't cheat; devs can" -Craig
- Original opcodes can do it all
- Scaling by miner competition, bring on the unannounced stress tests
 
Last edited: