Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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But with the original ordering rules, a future with much finer time-stamping was possible; with CTOR, the "10-min block structure" becomes a lot more visible.
Perhaps. I'm not arguing for or against TTOR or CTOR, I'm just saying that you can't really make a claim that TTOR was essential to Bitcoin because it provided properties that it actually didn't nor that you can claim another fork is not Bitcoin because it doesn't provide things that the "original" Bitcoin didn't either.

Indeed, it typically strengthens ones arguments to no include erroneous claims so this should hopefully be helpful to TTOR supporters in honing their points.

Though to your point itself, I don't thing CTOR necessarily precludes that finer time-stamping. Order within a block isn't really time-stamping in any realistic sense and any information it requires could easily be provided by other means. Though again, I don't advocate for CTOR.
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I assume you mean fee prioritization. how does this data square with definitive claims by @awemany and zander (guys that presumably work with this all the time) that blocks have tx's that have historically been ordered by TTOR?
I invite you to visit my earlier pastebin link and view the data for yourself.
 

Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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how did blockchain.info assign a tx received time then? when it hit their mempool? this is probably why I thought somehow a received time was embedded in the raw tx data.
This is my understanding.
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you should probably run this on at least 100 blocks scattered across a wide time frame with enough tx's for a representative sampling. I know, easy for me to say.
Not that hard to do. I'm not sure it would be that beneficial since the data already matches the description of how it's done and even one block proves that the alleged benefits can't be relied upon. I suspect a data visualization would be a better first step since I have an eye for trends in data but people tend to be visual.

Someone is going to have to explain how this would come about because it's an easy assertion but impossible to rebut without details.
 
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Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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I assume you mean fee prioritization. how does this data square with definitive claims by @awemany and zander (guys that presumably work with this all the time) that blocks have tx's that have historically been ordered by TTOR?
Additionally, I believe their definition of TTOR is based around *dependent* transactions being in order within a block and takes no interest in the order of independent transactions within the block.
[doublepost=1554160363,1554159474][/doublepost]
The process is simple: receive tx. Is valid? Is fee above minimum? Yes? Ok append it to the block template.
Yep. This is certainly the ideal. I'm not convinced it matters what sort order you apply to it afterwards before generating the hash though.
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Your altcoin will never reach a settlement granularity less than 10 minutes.
Not my 'altcoin'. I'm still on the fence.

Though if we want to talk altcoins, both BSV and BCH came through the EDA which is a huge potential objection to continuity of Bitcoinness which we quietly brush under the rug.
 
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I'm going to guess the 'select highest fee txs for block first' was there before congestion kicked in... The assumption at the time may not have been permanent 1mb block but it certainly assumed there'd be a block limit for a very long time.

Maybe I should double check but I'm 99% certain the original code didn't do any sorting.
I remember free transactions when I started bitcoin in mid 2013. But they were taken away soon. Guess that was the time the fee setting started.

Must be hard to take out the economic code which sneaked into the code base since so long
[doublepost=1554160724][/doublepost]I agree with richy that intra tx order is not a reliable source. But it is reliable for dependent transactions and might be a good indicator of done right. So replacing it with ctor seems, at least, weird.
 

Norway

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Sep 29, 2015
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One thing should be obvious:

We can never, ever, vote on development by BU devs.

You can't vote inspiration into a person.
[doublepost=1554163052,1554162217][/doublepost]To me, it looks like BCH is trying to win Burning Man.

Good luck, hippies. We're taking the rest of the world. With or without you.

 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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shadders

Member
Jul 20, 2017
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Additionally, I believe their definition of TTOR is based around *dependent* transactions being in order within a block and takes no interest in the order of independent transactions within the block.
[doublepost=1554160363,1554159474][/doublepost]

Yep. This is certainly the ideal. I'm not convinced it matters what sort order you apply to it afterwards before generating the hash though.
[doublepost=1554160534][/doublepost]
Please feel free to try and code it for performance then I'd like to hear your comments.
 

Norway

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Sep 29, 2015
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I want to propose @attila as a new member of Bitcoin Unlimited.
He has shown a dedication and the brainpower that makes Bitcoin Unlimited shine.

Ok, he may reduce @Peter R to a simple engineer with his expertise in physics. But why should we reject more brainpower in BU?

I have learned from Attila how LTOR degrades the original bitcoin, and now, I understand why.

@solex is worried (to some degree) that people are leaving BU. But he should not.

However, I'm against Attila as a new member if he doesn't reveal his true identity.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
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Kpool! decentralization increasing, as expected :

https://sv.coin.dance/blocks/today
[doublepost=1554169849][/doublepost]@shadders

could you do your best to address my concerns from this post?:

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-1399#post-90643
[doublepost=1554170173,1554169357][/doublepost]
tbh i wasn't sure what that data was demonstrating at first, but this explains it. all I can say is wow! pessimists got some splaining to do :

 

Norway

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Sep 29, 2015
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@Norway

Thanks for the kind words. However, I do want to stress that I know I'm nowhere near as smart and capable as @Peter R and many others at math and physics -- not a chance.

But I do know some things that are relevant and easily overlooked by people. And I can contribute by pointing out these overlooked pieces.
Ok, you may be the retarded little brother of the very smart and intelligent @Peter R .
But there is no chance in hell I would vote "yes" for your membership unless you are open on your identity.

I think the organisation Bitcoin Unlimited is more vulnerable than it has ever been before to sybil attacks.

We flew under the radar for many years. We had this thread. The trolls didn't figure out that a single thread on a forum was the only thread where it all happened. We could debate without interuption.

This lagoon of reason is heading for an explosion. But I'll try to resist.

This is why I want you to reveal your identity, @attila. Real people.

EDIT: If you choose to apply for membership. Which you should.
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

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Aug 29, 2015
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After seeing that Gavin Andresen was actually the one to add the first modification of transaction ordering to accommodate Greg Maxwell's "full blocks" designs, surely in an effort at preserving harmony among the committers, something strikes me:

Any carefully designed, revolutionary, multi-purpose product released into the wild without much guidance on why all the design choices were made is bound to have most of its features dismantled by others in the name of greater efficiency at achieving what subsequent engineers assume the design goals were, in only what they can fathom as being the best way to achieve those goals. Anything whose purpose is unknown will be dismantled as vestigial or a mistake, and various additions will be made in an effort to improve the design even if they ruin it instead.

Anger, contempt, and an uncompromising stance at returning to the original design is an understandable response when the original inventor returns to find the product neutered and perverted.

I can only imagine how the medical experts of today would redesign the human body if given the chance, let alone those of a century ago. "First, get that appendix out of there. Gallbladder? We have a device that works better. Tonsils? Dangerous to include. And hey, let's build insoles into the foot itself so we don't need them in shoes! You know what, no more pubic hair - think of all the crabs cases we'll eliminate. And that inordinate pain when you stub your toe? Tone toe sensitivity way back. And of course, let's make it so noses can't run or get stuffed, and eyes don't get red or puffy when you cry. And the pinky? I got a great idea. Let's make it a little Swiss army knife thingy. Think of the utility!"

All the seemingly extraneous things have a purpose, but the experts - or even volunteer medical practioners - may decide they don't. And all humans having a knife blade accessible on command is not necessarily a good idea.

Or take the tape measure:


"That square bottom is inefficient given the coil internally is circular. Let's make the whole thing circular to save space."

Except that square base was a conscious design choice. It comes in handy when making an internal measurement.

"And dude, that end hook tab thingy is loose! Obviously it needs to be tightened up."

Except that extra play in the hook is deliberate. Without it, due to the slight thickness of the hook, either measurements where you pull on the hook or push on the hook will be wrong.

I've included both complex and simple examples; had I only mentioned the tape measure, some may object that all such design nuances would be easily noticed over the years by those working closely with the product. If I had mentioned only the human body, some may believe all the changes I mentioned would actually be a good idea. An example most in this thread have the economic understanding to imagine for themselves is the price system, and how - were it somehow in their power - an economic expert might try to ordain a design wherein the price of copper be identical in all places, or many other such "innovations."

To demonstrate how this applies to the design choices of uncapped blocksize, transaction malleability, integrated witness data, the Merkle tree structure, an uncleaned stack, transactions being transparent and traceable, non-canonical ordering, lack of preconsensus, OP_CODESEPARATOR, UTXOs instead of accounts, the first-seen rule, and other design decisions of Bitcoin v0.1 isn't the aim of this comment. Rather to think, provisionally, if these all really did have a well-thought-out purpose but were being "improved" roughshod, how an inventor might react.
 
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bsdtar

New Member
Apr 1, 2019
20
52
Hey guys, great thread you have here!

Maybe I should double check but I'm 99% certain the original code didn't do any sorting.
The original code did sort by txid when there was no unmet topological constraint. See https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/main.cpp#L2241 . It's iterating over mapTransactions which is using the default comparison object (=operator<). Also worth noting that ~16MiB block size limit.

Also, note that BCH clients do have a CTOR->TTOR algorithm, which is used when a block is disconnected (eg a reorg). Once-confirmed transactions that are not part of the longest chain need to go back into the mempool and ATMP requires them to be in topological order.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
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2,741
That went over my head.
[doublepost=1554172832][/doublepost]
Please feel free to try and code it for performance then I'd like to hear your comments.
I mean in terms of protocol niceties. I've already stated that performance arguments are fine. I was hoping we were getting to where I wouldn't have to pad my posts out with a bunch of disclaimers and qualifiers. "Gotcha" discussions become wearying quite quickly.