Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[Christoph Bergmann]

I'll push the issue further:

That some people here in this thread hate the fact that 0-conf doublespends is solved is a proof that they hate bitcoin.

They hate the fact that bitcoin works.

They want to grab power where they are the solution to problems that doesn't exist.

If you are competent and want to make money, shut up and make good stuff that works. Tech bureaucrats can burn in a warm place.

I wouldn't go as far as you.

Yesterday I was on a local meetup. They accepted BTC and LN via btcpayserver for drinks. After the hype shaped off, in our little city only the Lightning maximalists and me are left. The LN payment of me and another guy failed (we used the same app), but another one, whose LN app was connected to the LN node of the one processing the payment, succeeded with paying with LN. And it is Lightning fast, maybe a second, and he looked at me, like "See? It works! And how fast it it! See, such a great technology."

While we had this in 2013, in another city, on one of the first German Bitcoin conferences. We paid Burgers and drinks with our wallets, the burger man just had a tablet with a wallet of blockchain.info. Every wallet would serve this purpose. And it was Lightning fast. Without installing BTCpayserver, without renting a cloud node, without a failure rate of 50 percent.

Most people forgot - or never experienced[1] - that real-time payment in copresence of buyer and seller - has never been a problem with Bitcoin. It just works. In 5 years of daily Bitcoin journalism I have not heard once from people complaining about pos double spends.

And yes: The experts who pray Peter Todd's song of "0conf are not secure"[2] have a big fault at this miserable state of mind. And I also agree that the desire to leave a footprint in Bitcoin's technological history might be a driver behind.

And, finally, yes: For me "Techn bureaucratism" was a main problem of BTC - and a main reason for BCH - so I'm disappointed to see it restablish on the Bitcoin Cash side of things.

[1] Afaik today BTC payments are slower than BCH / BSV payments. To help privacy, Core implemented a mechanism which delays the transaction forwarding from a node for a random amount of time. This makes LIghtning payments really faster than 0conf BTC payments. But I don't know details.

[2] The story of Peter Todd's Double Spend is a good example of the mindset of technologists. He proofed that he can double spend reddit gold by fooling Coinbase's merchant tool. Shortly after reddit cancelled the Gold and deleted Peter's account. So, reddit lost nothing except giving someone a few minutes of extra features, while Peter Todd lost his long curated account. The story proofed that Double Spends are NO problem. But the technologists took it for proof that it is a problem. Might be a result of overfocusation on the technical part of it.

 

[cypherblock]

TIL :

To help privacy, Core implemented a mechanism which delays the transaction forwarding from a node for a random amount of time

Lol I never knew this. Fascinating. Here is more from Peter Wuille:
"Random delays are added before forwarding in order to obscure the source of transactions. Each hop on average takes 5-10 seconds."

Oddly though my experience is different. If I send a btc transaction from my mobile wallet, it will generally get received by my bitcoin node within 1-10 seconds (but honestly never really timed it). That would imply one or maybe 2 hops. I would have thought a few more hops would be involved.

 

[Norway]

The future of BCH:
[doublepost=1547864364,1547863484][/doublepost]Seems like @Peter R 's buddy Emin is 100% convinced that bitcoin is a mesh where non-mining computers are equal to miners.

BloXroute and Avalanche are both based on this assumption.

Looking forward to Peter finding back to his roots and being a scientist again.

 

[freetrader]

Avalanche [...] based on this [bitcoin is a mesh] assumption.

Proving you don't understand Avalanche as discussed in the context of Bitcoin Cash, or are willing to misrepresent it.

Those participating in Avalanche in current proposals are nodes of miners.
Who is saying they have to form a mesh?

 

[cypherblock]

BloXroute and Avalanche are both based on this assumption.

In what way is that their assumption?

All I see with bloxroute is an alternative network to relay blocks. Whether or not it is significantly faster than other techniques without introducing issues (censorship/privacy, etc) remains to be seen. They have some "provably fair" tech that they haven't explained yet (that I can fin), other than that it seems identical to other relay networks (fibre, bitcoin relay network).

Currently unless I'm mistaken it is not yet available (in development). They are free to build what they want, when it is ready people can better evaluate it. Till then, marketing hype to raise vc funds.

 

[lunar]

I know many smart people read this thread. Please step up and defend sanity and logic. The "CSW is bad so the alternative is always better" mindset has to die.

CDS (craig derangement syndrome) is real. Now wormhole is a corpse, why did ABC implement a must fork rule and force this split?

Most of the smart people have moved on, in the realisation that PoSM is a battle not worth fighting. There are too many self righteous fools convinced of their own world view. The reality is Bitcoin is an economic system, and the smart ones are feverishly building things that will make them rich.


"If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry"

ABC is dead, they have fallen into the same trap as Core. 'Bitcoin is broken we're here to fix it.' Bitmain funding, I guess, has all but run out, so It won't be long before all the fools are cut off.

There's only so many times people can explain 0conf isn't broken or pre-consensus is degradation of Nakamoto consensus and the existing natural Tx ordering, or it's a mistake to change the economic incentives before we've understood why they exist in the first place.

The contrast is pronounced, just call into the Unlimited and SV slack channels to see the difference. BU slack is infested with trolls and has become toxic, whereas SV slack is remarkable. So much productivity and many new ideas, building on a solid, stable, foundation of a fixed protocol.

Six months time, and this idiotic split will be a distant memory. BUIDL
[doublepost=1547915715,1547915004][/doublepost]

 

[freetrader]

Now wormhole is a corpse, why did ABC implement a must fork rule and force this split?

Did BSV'ers still not get the memo that the rules of the November upgrade had nothing to do with Wormhole?

"If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry"

From unwriter's post:

All messages are OP_RETURN transactions. But what's unique is: It's FREE. No need to pay or think about wallets.

LOL it's not free, it's just subsidized. Otherwise someone could show in the code where such transactions are free on BSV.

Basic economic realities being thrown overboard by BSV proponents in desperation?

 

[lunar]

QED

 

[freetrader]

QED

0/1 requires proof

So far not a single one has shown how the rule upgrades have something to do with Wormhole.

 

[cypherdoc]

Did BSV'ers still not get the memo that the rules of the November upgrade had nothing to do with Wormhole?

"If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry"

From unwriter's post:


LOL it's not free, it's just subsidized. Otherwise someone could show in the code where such transactions are free on BSV.

Basic economic realities being thrown overboard by BSV proponents in desperation?

weren't you the one pumping wormhole right before it failed? you never did respond to my link to CSW's critique of it. anyone who can't see Bitmain mightily struggling at this point is intentionally apologizing. it's %hash on BTC has been cut severely down to size confirming that mining decentralization has never been a problem and is becoming even less so as the years go by.

 

[freetrader]

CSW never provided any link between ABC's rule changes and Wormhole.
And, please show me where I ever pumped Wormhole.
That's about as accurate as saying I pumped BSV.
Also, what's with the mining centralization strawman?

p.s. I note that you could have tried to provide an argument linking protocol changes to Wormhole, but didn't. Presumably you're just another BSV supporter who doesn't have an argument.

 

[cypherblock]

:facepalm:

...in the realisation that PoSM is a battle not worth fighting. There are too many self righteous fools convinced of their own world view.

Literally this is what your post is though. You are waging a battle here for no reason. You posted 2 social media tweets in this post and made other unsubstantiated claims. Were you trying to be sarcastic? I couldn't tell.

 

[Christoph Bergmann]

@lunar

Yes, the bsv slack is a nice channel, good conversations, an atmosphere of enthusiasm and a dedication to high level technical discussions. Also, Everybody behaves polite and conversations happen on threads. Bu slack is a mess now, whenever I say something I get trolled by the same account, who is not even a bu member but on slack all the time.

It's like it was in core slack ... Don't have our mindset? Get trolled! It should be the job of solex to establish moderation here and enable it a place for all members to be welcome to have a conversation.

 

[solex]

Oddly though my experience is different. If I send a btc transaction from my mobile wallet, it will generally get received by my bitcoin node within 1-10 seconds (but honestly never really timed it). That would imply one or maybe 2 hops. I would have thought a few more hops would be involved.

I think the reason the delay in the gossip protocol is not so apparent is that older version Core nodes on the BTC network, including the BU nodes which remain, do not have the propagation delay, and forward quickly.
I recall reading something similar about the BCH network, that the BU nodes are facilitating fast txn propagation. It would be interesting to know if ABC got rid of the delay it inherited from Core, or was forked earlier.
[doublepost=1547937181][/doublepost]@Christoph Bergmann
The BU slack has very light moderation indeed. Some might say too light, and I hear your complaint about recent conversations.
I would be interested to know how many accounts have been banned from the SV slack in the last 2 months....?

 

[Christoph Bergmann]

@solex
It's not just me. Imho Norway stopped using BU slack because of one account, and I think a few more. I enjoyed every visit there in the last two or three years, and even when not agreeing, the level of the discussion was a lot better than on most other places. Even short before the fork we had heated, but valuable conversations. This is all gone. I just get trolled and attacked ... It feels like the Core slack a few years ago. After trying to conversate and discuss and just getting trolled by the same accounts all time, I stopped visiting it. If nothing happens on BU slack, the same will happen here too.

This is no insult against you. BU is in a very difficult situation, and you, as secretary, have the hard responsibility to moderate it through this.

 

[cypherblock]

bsv slack is a nice channel,...and a dedication to high level technical discussions.

Except when you boot people from the slack for having those very technical discussions.

 

[RollieMe]

So much for banking the unbanked: Bitpay has banned Cambodia. I'd been paying for server costs (and a bunch of other things) for many months now using Bitcoin Cash via Bitpay without a problem until today.

 

[SPAZTEEQ]

Game over, casino wins?
[doublepost=1547993664][/doublepost]nm, something about sanctions it seems.

 

[Christoph Bergmann]

So much for banking the unbanked: Bitpay has banned Cambodia. I'd been paying for server costs (and a bunch of other things) for many months now using Bitcoin Cash via Bitpay without a problem until today.

Try accessing with a VPN, ask your provider to accept Bitcoin directly, or use a provider which doesn't use BitPay. There are plenty of it.

Why is Cambodia blocked?

 

[RollieMe]

> Try accessing with a VPN,

Sure there are probably ways around it. I don't know if bitpay provide the payment ip to the merchant for matching. I shouldn't have to screw around with it just to use my money.

> ask your provider to accept Bitcoin directly,

There's 10's or 100's of thousands of Bitpay merchants. Asking each of them every time I come across something I want to buy is going to be hard ask. I was just really pleased with how well it just worked this past year.

> or use a provider which doesn't use BitPay. There are plenty of it.

Yeah I'm not migrating five or six servers just to get around this issue. It's possibly days of work.

> Why is Cambodia blocked?

Got no idea.

Anyway, I appreciate the suggestions. I'm just pissed off. Anyway, screw Bitpay. It seems all of these crypto companies are just like the arseholes we've had to deal with forever as soon as they get to any size.