Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[lunar]

Peter R has been pwned:

This was all explained in patient detail last year. Unfortunately Peter has a blind spot.
[doublepost=1543248609][/doublepost]

 

[cypherdoc]

 

[Zarathustra]

Best summary about culture I know of is unfortunately in German:

http://www.dasgelbeforum.net/30434/messages/360031.htm

 

[cypherdoc]

tbh, i'm a little disappointed. i was looking forward to snuffing out ABC sooner than later via a true hashwar and reuniting the big block community, not out of kumbayah, but out of economic necessity. instead, now we have a chain split. this lends credence to the ABC argument of all talk no walk, to a degree. the argument against that is SV had to invest $100M's to get here along with the losses of the last 11d or so. but then of course, any large financial player could do this in an attempt to sway a large dedicated portion of the community knowing full well that they weren't ever going to see it thru to the death. otoh, maybe it was 4D chess from CSW all along; plenty of bluster and thunder only to then play by the rules via honest mining and get ABC to commit suicide with the horrendous rolling 10m checkpoints. i tend to doubt it. the pain of financial losses was probably too great. will it work? i do think the rolling checkpoints are the kiss of death along with the possible move to a POS system. so i'll still hope for the fulfillment of the SV vision and support that but will watch carefully for any violation of that dream.

 

[sickpig]

Are the miners forming a small world network/near complete graph or not?

Let me respond with a question: Is the block time >> propagation time? I.e. could we say that "propagation is insignificant compared to block time"?

 

[bitsko]

After seeing $0.75 cent fees to trade cat images last year I knew they needed a competitor and im quite pleased to see what seems a lasting competitor to ETH in ABC.

Knowing there is a bitcoin flavor for legitimate business, with a portfolio of tech and rights that are exclusive is also very appealing as an investor.

Exciting times!

 

[cypherdoc]

to summarize: the most surprising and revealing event of the last 11d was the speed and willingness of Amaury to unilaterally enact a hard fork, not once, but twice to implement a checkpoint and then rolling checkpoints without consulting miners, users, or community. the fact that it's weaknesses were exposed so quickly via alternative attack vectors, like possible chain splits and double spends, as well as jtoomim's acknowledgment of that fact via his reorg "upgrade" proposal, is testimony to the fact that open source discussion is both necessary and required before enacting such centrally applied moral hazard, as no one or two ABC devs are smarter than the community as a whole. the fact that we already see visible ABC node concensus splits as a result is damning, as are the resulting price movements. i also predict that SV's appeal to businesses via the "we will professionalize Bitcoin", is going to have substantial effect. i believe that financial markets have given the volutaryist dev model a long 8-9yrs to get it's act together but have run out of patience. they want to use Bitcoin sooner than later, but to do that, they need a clear resolution/vision to the end of the blocksize debate. they, as i, are tired of hearing excuses. ABC's unwillingness to move from the 32MB limit in it's latest release is evidence that, from their side, the limit will continue to be a problem.

 

[Norway]

Let me respond with a question: Is the block time >> propagation time? I.e. could we say that "propagation is insignificant compared to block time"?

I will answer your question as well as I can, if you answer mine first.

EDIT:

Is it a myth, or is it real? Or do you not know?

 

[lunar]

Mmm where did all that economic activity go to? Who cares about the velocity of money, right?

 

[cypherdoc]

The truth is; to change a financial system, such as Bitcoin, it is up to the proposer to demonstrate just how much better the proposed addition would be. The converse has occurred. All of these changes have taken away from Bitcoin, and we will return it to the original state.

i very much agree with this characterization. typical core dev response to adopting SWSF, "don't use it if you don't like it. or fork off. nvm we changed 95% of the code along with financial incentives".

https://medium.com/@craig_10243/sun-setting-p2sh-8b3c08f271c0

 

[freetrader]

bla bla bla near complete graph

Is it a myth, or is it real? Or do you not know?

You may claim to know, but you don't have the data to back it up.

That's the difference between fact and belief.

 

[Peter R]

Let's set this straight, @Peter R :

Are the miners forming a small world network/near complete graph or not?

What is the average number of hops between mining nodes?

EDIT:
Do you understand that your observing science nodes are not mining nodes, and that they can not measure the time for miners to receive a block?

We can infer how quickly blocks propagate between BSV miners directly from the orphan rate. The orphan rate was roughly 5% during the BSV stress test, indicating an average propagation time of 30 seconds. If blocks propagated to 99.98% of the hash power within 2 seconds, the orphan rate would have been less than 0.3% during the stress test instead.

 

[lunar]

@cypherdoc

The replay protection makes more sense after this tweet.

 

[Norway]

@Peter R
Are the miners forming a small world network/near complete graph or not?

Is this issue taboo for some reason?

 

[Peter R]

@Norway: I don't know how to measure which miners are connected to which other miners. But I would not be surprised, since BSV only has 4 miners, if they are all connected to each other with a single hop.

What I do know for sure is that the BSV miners were unable to quickly propagate blocks between each other, as evident by the 5% orphan rate during the stress test. The claim that 99.98% of miners receive and switch to the next block in under 2 seconds is provably false under current network conditions.

 

[molecular]

Yes, I think I misinterpreted your post somehow.

What a relief, thanks for saying that.

There's a lot going through my mind and I have a lot I would like to discuss about what you said and what @Norway said further above in reaction to my post. Unfortunately personal circumstances are draining most my time and energy... so it'll have to wait.

I'm still in process of making my mind up.

Me too and this is good, because it means it still makes sense to talk.

 

[Zarathustra]

 

[Norway]

I don't know how to measure which miners are connected to which other miners. But I would not be surprised, since BSV only has 4 miners, if they are all connected to each other with a single hop.

I have been speaking in general terms about bitcoin here. You did not answer my question directly, but said you don't know how to measure the connectivity of miners.

The only way I can interprete this, is that you don't know if miners form a small world/near complete graph or not.

I think it would be a good idea for BU in general to find out what the network graph for miners and the network as a whole look like.

It's just too silly to claim that a block took 20 minutes to propagate, when you measure from a distant non-mining node with low connectivity.

 

[Peter R]

@Norway

Do you not understand the orphan rate argument? That we can infer miner connectivity how quickly blocks propagate between miners from the observed orphan rate?

 

[Norway]

@Peter R

Do you not understand the orphan rate argument?

I don't know if you are counting internal orphans in a pool or not. You can make some bad estimates if you don't know the graph of the network.

That we can infer miner connectivity from the observed orphan rate?

Not sure what you mean by connectivity here. You just said "I don't know how to measure which miners are connected to which other miners.", and this is what I would call connectivity.

But maybe you mean something else. Bandwidth? Latency? Time of block propagation?