Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
> It's literally nothing more than: "I'm a BCH maximalist, but CSW CSW CSW".

I'm a superhonest non-ridiculous BCH maximalist who follows those assholes who prefer to mine BTC and invest in multicurrency exchanges, because CSW CSW CSW.

Schopenhauer was right. We live in the worst of all possible worlds:

To return, then to Leibniz, I cannot ascribe to the Théodicée as a methodical and broad unfolding of optimism, any other merit than this, that it gave occasion later for the immortal “Candide” of the great Voltaire; whereby certainly Leibniz s often-repeated and lame excuse for the evil of the world, that the bad sometimes brings about the good, received a confirmation which was unexpected by him… But indeed to the palpably sophistical proofs of Leibniz that this is the best of all possible worlds, we may seriously and honestly oppose the proof that it is the worst of all possible worlds. For possible means, not what one may construct in imagination, but what can actually exist and continue. Now this world is so arranged as to be able to maintain itself with great difficulty; but if it were a little worse, it could no longer maintain itself. Consequently a worse world, since it could not continue to exist, is absolutely impossible: thus this world itself is the worst of all possible worlds. For not only if the planets were to run their heads together, but even if any one of the actually appearing perturbations of their course, instead of being gradually balanced by others, continued to increase, the world would soon reach its end. Astronomers know upon what accidental circumstances principally the irrational relation to each other of the periods of revolution this depends, and have carefully calculated that it will always go on well; consequently the world also can continue and go on. We will hope that, although Newton was of an opposite opinion, they have not miscalculated, and consequently that the mechanical perpetual motion realised in such a planetary system will not also, like the rest, ultimately come to a standstill. Again, under the firm crust of the planet dwell the powerful forces of nature which, as soon as some accident affords them free play, must necessarily destroy that crust, with everything living upon it, as has already taken place at least three times upon our planet, and will probably take place oftener still. The earthquake of Lisbon, the earthquake of Haiti, the destruction of Pompeii, are only small, playful hints of what is possible. A small alteration of the atmosphere, which cannot even be chemically proved, causes cholera, yellow fever, black death, &c., which carry off millions of men; a somewhat greater alteration would extinguish all life. A very moderate increase of heat would dry up all the rivers and springs. The brutes have received just barely so much in the way of organs and powers as enables them to procure with the greatest exertion sustenance for their own lives and food for their offspring; therefore if a brute loses a limb, or even the full use of one, it must generally perish. Even of the human race, powerful as are the weapons it possesses in understanding and reason, nine-tenths live in constant conflict with want, always balancing themselves with difficulty and effort upon the brink of destruction. Thus throughout, as for the continuance of the whole, so also for that of each individual being the conditions are barely and scantily given, but nothing over. The individual life is a ceaseless battle for existence itself; while at every step destruction threatens it. Just because this threat is so often fulfilled provision had to be made, by means of the enormous excess of the germs, that the destruction of the individuals should not involve that of the species, for which alone nature really cares. The world is therefore as bad as it possibly can be if it is to continue to be at all. Q. E. D. The fossils of the entirely different kinds of animal species which formerly inhabited the planet afford us, as a proof of our calculation, the records of worlds the continuance of which was no longer possible, and which consequently were somewhat worse than the worst of possible worlds.*

@Christoph Bergmann

My favorite artist is Nietzsche and my favorite philosopher is Schopenhauer.

 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
@Richy_T

>I believe I've provably always held a poor view of Luke-Jr's actions in this matter.

can you show me? and why are you cherry picking Luke when my examples have only focused on BitcoinExpress and Artforz whose reps are substantially better to the point where many consider them heros.

>but that doesn't mean I condone the action

then maybe your ought to voice this in response to @awemany and on reddit/Twitter?

as a reminder, i long ago reconciled my opinions on this matter after watching the actions of BE and Artforz. if we all want a single world wide reserve currency, hashwars are going to have to cull the herd.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
p.s. thanks @Bloomie for what appears now to me as resisting an attempt by @cypherdoc to have this thread shut down in the past.
I don't think it was so much an attempt to have it shut down and cypherdoc was demanding control, bloomie didn't give it to him so cypherdoc flounced. Which I thought was a shame as I like his posts in general. I think feelings are running high at the moment. Hopefully we can get past this and get back to the adoption agenda which is what I really care about. We've been stalled out for more than 3 years now :(
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
why can't the BTC miners keep their hash on ABC? put your money where your mouths are. if you truly want ABC to succeed, mine it, kill SV, and keep it there:


or are profits more important?

 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
can you show me? and why are you cherry picking Luke when my examples have only focused on BitcoinExpress and Artforz whose reps are substantially better to the point where many consider them heros.
Am I going to go back through hundreds and hundreds of posts on bitcointalk which has a shit search feature? Probably not. And the reason to focus on Luke-Jr's is merely that they are the most well known instances of this and, in truth, I had not heard of those other ones. *shrug*
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
I don't think it was so much an attempt to have it shut down and cypherdoc was demanding control, bloomie didn't give it to him so cypherdoc flounced. Which I thought was a shame as I like his posts in general. I think feelings are running high at the moment. Hopefully we can get past this and get back to the adoption agenda which is what I really care about. We've been stalled out for more than 3 years now :(
all i ever wanted was to be able to quickly clear out this shit and you know it:

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-1288#post-84212

 
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Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
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BTC HAS destroyed other chains.
BTC has not destroyed other chains. Some people who had been mining BTC switched their hash power and mined a different coin in a manner so as to disrupt that coin's economic value.
[doublepost=1542394574][/doublepost]
all i ever wanted was to be able to clear out this shit and you know it:
I can concur with that. But I will also note that that is not at odds with what I wrote.
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
Am I going to go back through hundreds and hundreds of posts on bitcointalk which has a shit search feature? Probably not. And the reason to focus on Luke-Jr's is merely that they are the most well known instances of this and, in truth, I had not heard of those other ones. *shrug*
well, if you look at their resumes, BE single handedly killed WAY more coins than Luke ever did (maybe one or two at most?) maybe the lesson is to get your history straight?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=790462.0

>BTC has not destroyed other chains. Some people who had been mining BTC switched their hash power and mined a different coin in a manner so as to disrupt that coin's economic value.

i don't see this as any different than what CSW is trying to do with SV.
 
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Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
then maybe your ought to voice this in response to @awemany and on reddit/Twitter?
Meh. Reddit is a shitshow right now in r/btc-land and Twitter is a shitshow always (and I refuse to use it). I don't think there's much to be gained. at this point on either other than throwing half-bricks at each other.
[doublepost=1542395198][/doublepost]
well, if you look at their resumes, BE single handedly killed WAY more coins than Luke ever did (maybe one or two at most?) maybe the lesson is to get your history straight?
It makes no material difference. I didn't pick Luke-Jr because he was someone to put up as a bad guy, I picked him because those specific actions were well known and just as wrong (or right, depending on your POV). [Though I'd actually say wronger because they weren't necessary for BTC's success]

i don't see this as any different than what CSW is trying to do with SV.
Sure. But that was not my point. My point is that this was individual actors, not "BTC" (for whatever that could mean). I'm really not happy with collectivist contexts creeping into what is supposed to be based on the free actions of individuals.
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
@Richy_T

>Sure. But that was not my point. My point is that this was individual actors, not "BTC" (for whatever that could mean). I'm really not happy with collectivist contexts creeping into what is supposed to be based on the free actions of individuals.

well i think you're just parsing words. esp after all the argumentation in this thread over the years about how miners are Bitcoin and Bitcoin is miners and the importance of decision making via PoW. the actions of the dominant miners at the time were to destroy altcoins. thus, if you try to make moralistic arguments that SV is bad by wanting to destroy what it thinks are altcoins, i think that is hypocrisy (not you apparently).
[doublepost=1542396190][/doublepost]
I didn't see you answer when freetrader asked you for evidence of this. Can you provide some?
geezuz

https://bitco.in/forum/goto/post?id=84155#post-84155
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
Full response later, but to clear the air: I see nothing morally wrong with rolling a chain back to a checkpoint. Despite the name, the term "moral hazard" has nothing to do with morality in this context; it has to do with whether an entity without commensurate skin in the game (dev team, etc.) is put in a position to pick winners and losers by deciding when to roll back and when not to, which might incidentally be immoral but what matters is it wrecks the value of the coin.

Again, it's not the existence of the checkpoint that makes a coin centralized and worthless in this competitive environment (we ain't in 2010 anymore), it's the use of it.

And to adopt it as a new security model as many are implying (if you advocate it to guard against SV's threats - a *persistent* 51% attack targetting *recent* blocks - you're indeed advocating a new security model) is jumping the shark.
 
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lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
4,290
The checkpoint issue is a red herring, it's only valid once it's used.

But then...... and it becomes a slippery slope. Who issued it, who knew first and who doesn't get to know? If used in anger like this, it instantly turns any blockchain into a permissioned ledger.

The whole idea is one massive moral hazzard waiting to happen.

Miner A gets to know the checkpoint early Miner B doesn't.
Exchange A does, Exchange B doesn't and looses user funds as they were monitoring the wrong chain.

danger, danger, ABC
[doublepost=1542396929][/doublepost]@cypherdoc

https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/0437cd7f8525ceed2324359c2d0ba26006d92d856a9c20fa0241106ee5a597c9
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
Oh and if someone's thinking to make the decision of when to roll back (to a checkpoint) automatic, like having the protocol always ignore 6-block reorgs, there's a new term you might want to get acquainted with: "clusterfork."

There's a reason Bitcoin doesn't do this.
first, the willingness to change the PoW. now this.

Solidcoin and RealSolid all over again. nice job ABC.

there's a guy who has no knowledge of the history.
[doublepost=1542398702][/doublepost]