Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Dusty

Active Member
Mar 14, 2016
362
1,172
I dare you to mix some DSV into your wallets right after the fork. (Hint: You may lose everything if ABC gets worthless.)
It seems like you missed, like Ryan, what I wrote on my post: what if I mix my wallet with "new" bitcoins of the BCH network, i.e.: coins mined after the fork?

Those would be "normal" invalid transactions, no way to steal them by miners on the other chain, and hence creating perfect replay protection: then I would be able to dump all my SV coins and buy BCH.

Of course if there will be exchanges willing to list SV...
 

There are only two ways to react on this:

1. "I fucking hate CSW so much. Tell me what to do to stop him!"

2. "Stop manipulating me."

After what we had for years, I was confident this community strongly tending to 2. Seems like I was wrong.

Edit: I started a survey about this question. Until now 75% vote for being sheeple.

 
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Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
Just want to quickly point out that Greg WAS part of Ledger. We were very honored to have him. Then when Blockstream happened he mysteriously left the journal and didn't want to have any associations with it. We were really bummed.
While you hate CSW that much that you hardly write about other things anymore, you "were very honored" to have that disgusting Bitcoin destroyer number one with you and you were bummed when he left?

Unbelievable.
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
-----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hi all,

There is much to address, but today I'd just like to bring up a narrower and more pressing matter. It's my understanding that the latest version of BU is defaulting to having ABC settings turned on, including CTOR and the enabling of DSV.

As I am still partial to the SV view, I am opposed to CTOR and DSV (BUIP095) being included in the Bitcoin and/or Bitcoin Cash blockchain. That said, BU's mission was to offer miners the ability to make their own choice regarding which controversial settings to mine with, without having those choices be entangled with their choice of development team. As such, I initially saw the BU ideal as being to enable every controversial change as an ON/OFF setting.

Nevertheless, besides the issue of biasing the result by having ABC settings enabled by default (I am opposed to any defaults, incuding SV's; the obvious most neutral thing to do is have the user be prompted to specifically choose each setting at startup), there is a more fundamental matter that makes me question the premise that BU can remain fully neutral.

The specter of legal ramifications around DSV has been raised. Regardless of the validity of Craig Wright's claims about DSV legality and regardless of our opinions on what the law ought to be, the general principle raises a serious question about controversial changes:

If there is even a small doubt as to the legality of including something in the BU software, can BU feasibly hope to remain neutral? If miners feel a need to avoid running software that can facilitate them doing something that incurs liability even if it is "just an option," is there any hope of practical neutrality where all controversial changes are included in BU software?

Although I did not vote for BUIP095 (OP_CHECKDATASIG and OP_CHECKDATASIGVERIFY) and although I have no legal or coding expertise, I missed the chance to vote against it explicitly, and the BUIP did pass the overall BU vote. Therefore, to clarify any doubts as to my position as a Bitcoin Unlimited member, I hereby disavow BUIP095, and I recommend OP_CHECKDATASIG and OP_CHECKDATASIGVERIFY not be included in BU software, nor any similar variants such as OP_DATASIGVERIFY, especially not enabled by default. I will hold this position at least until a thorough legal review can be conducted.

This is not a partisan choice; I have the same view about any SV change that anyone can credibly argue might introduce new legal issues. If OP_MUL, for instance, can be shown to bring any possible new legal issue I will likewise say, "As a BU member I disavow it. Let SV deal with any liability itself, or do the legwork of showing why it is safe."

Likewise this has no connection to what I personally believe the law should be, nor whether we should even have this kind of government. It's a matter of the law as it exists and whether Bitcoin is made into a target. As it stands, Bitcoin seems in a very happy place where it appears remarkably hard to deem illegal under present law despite its radical usefulness. Whether this was by design or by a great coincidence, I'd like to keep it that way.

One may fairly point out that as both a non-expert on code and a non-expert on law, under the principle set forth by this precedent, I cannot cast any more votes on any changes - not even those favored by SV. Unfortunately, I must agree, at least as soon as anyone raises a credible legal argument against any such change. (I happen to find the idea "general building blocks, rather than specific designs that enable specific activities, are not legally liable" pretty convincing, but that is outside the scope of this post.)

As Bitcoin matures, we must face the reality that Bitcoin exists in the real world, subject to existing law for the foreseeable future despite whatever hopes we hold for its eventual ability to change legal systems. As such it is inevitable that its development be increasingly relegated to professionals informed by expert legal guidance, likely at the direct behest of miners.

Where this leaves BU is uncertain, but changes specifically designed to "kick the hornet's nest" on the reasoning that "who ever cared about staying within the law anyway? This is Bitcoin!" seem ill-considered, regardless of origin. Love or hate CSW, and agree or disagree with his legal arguments, he is correct that there are no simple answers here, and that bitcoiners have fallen into the error of imagining Bitcoin to be inherently extralegal or designed specifically to circumvent the law.

Bitcoin has the ability to create radical change over the next few decades, but as for the present day it walks a fine line, and "just giving an option" may not protect BU miners if that option is regarded as categorically legally different than something like the choice of the size of blocks (or the basic low-level math operations in a language offering no specific privileged function other than a known legal one, i.e., basic money).

"Are lawyers with yappy arguments really going to let us limit Bitcoin?"

Limit no, probably not in any important way, but delay yes. Every change must be not only technically and economically sound, but also not open any large new legal attack surface. This throws a monkey wrench in BU's mission of neutrality, but hopefully going forward teams will start giving some thought to the legal side as well, and anything questionable will not gain traction.

Yes, I'm well aware that could mean nothing gains traction ever again, due to legal fears. Despite any notion of it being good to "lock down the code," I don't think the legal uncertainty helps anything, but reality is reality. Govs are NOT cracking down on Bitcoin, and this is a small miracle that has gone unappreciated. I know many here have been around long enough to remember when the idea that Bitcoin would be opposed by governments from the moment it was really on their radar was taken as obvious. I haven't seen anyone reflect on just how "lucky" Bitcoin has been to escape crackdowns in just about every country on the planet.

As more coins do get government attention, I think the reality will set in that Bitcoin is a very specific design and not a free-for-all. Witness data was integrated for a reason. The ledger is transparent for a reason. The scripting language is generic and low-level for a reason. Maybe one day it will be more of a Wild West, but Bitcoin as it stands is the ultimate subtle-knife exemplar of "working within the system to change the system."

As we say that the main reason people don't understand Bitcoin is they don't understand money, likewise I suspect the reason people don't understand the legality concerns over DSV is they don't understand that Bitcoin was designed with a deep understanding of the common law around money. It is not magically above the law because "the state can't touch Bitcoin or its users." That illusion was shattered years ago, yet they do leave Bitcoin alone as a whole. Think on whether this is really a coincidence, and whether things can be arbitrarily shifted around with expediency for various pet use cases as the sole standard of evaluation. Satoshi warned against the "pirate money" image and said "don't 'bring it on'" because he knew there was a way to stay legal while Bitcoin grew too big to be stopped.

Zangelbert Bingledack, November 9th, 2018
-----BEGIN SIGNATURE-----
19a3fheZVGragEreBzXhjWMuSev2PrHToF
GzHQ+ySpDyt6CfPFBwE4jiKmzpUeMnAM5AU4Ig50pnNRrv/Adj1SIZiy1GnS45MhLnV7fAenPHU3AP8GIsyZNpc=
-----END BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 

sgbett

Active Member
Aug 25, 2015
216
786
UK
Same. Been watching now for some months. Miners should choose, everything else is bickering (Which is why I mostly lurk!) and potentially divisive.

BU should drive for active choice. Passive default, is implied support imho.
 

Peter R

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,398
5,595
While you hate CSW that much that you hardly write about other things anymore, you "were very honored" to have that disgusting Bitcoin destroyer numer one with you and you were bummed when he left?

Unbelievable.
Yes we were honoured to have him.

You’re looking at this through the lens of today; through the lense of 2014, Greg Maxwell appeared as a strong advocate for bitcoin as p2p cash and a talented programmer and cryptographer*.

I already saw hints of small-blockerism in him, but I thought he would (and the community would) approach the matter of scaling scientifically. And at the time, I was open to the idea that my vision of scaling with bigger blocks _could_ have been unsound (or at least more difficult than I initially imagined). I never thought for a second that Greg Maxwell would lead efforts to have an entire side of the debate banished from technical conferences, the dev mailing list, and social media platforms.

*And he is still a talented programmer and cryptographer, just no longer an advocate for Bitcoin as originally designed by Satoshi.
 

macsga

New Member
Sep 29, 2015
14
49
Some pretty solid points from Zangelbert Bingledac. I must also suggest that this is an antagonistic process, so it somehow boils down to the survival of the fittest. I wouldn't want to comment on CSW's attitude, from what I can tell his math always verified when I had to check.

We may be in front of an unprecedented event from all this, which may / may not be as bad as we now predict. Patience (and calmness) is advised.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
@Zangelbert Bingledack

great to see you back

from what i recall ,you were one of the original major proponents of CDSV (or a variant) that allowed onchain betting, to the point that whenever I even hear about the concept, I think of you . what radically changed your mind, other than the possible legality?
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
Indeed.

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-1150#post-59771
[doublepost=1541769917][/doublepost]Let's just do a full quote.
OP_DATASIGVERIFY on its own already seems to enable many transformative use cases.

Scenario: A subsistence farmer with a $5 solar-powered feature phone that can use BCH, faces a problem. If the current drought continues into July and August (a 1 in 20 eventuality), two of his children will die of starvation.

His BCH wallet lets him take out "crop insurance" for his local area, which under the hood involves placing a bet on monthly rainfall for July and August using OP_DATASIGVERIFY.

The conditional transaction takes his input of X BCH and an insurer's input* of 18X BCH and sends all 19X BCH to him if at least 8 out of 10 of the cryptographically signed weather feeds specified in the transaction agree the total rainfall in July and August fell below a certain threshold, and sends the 19X BCH to the insurer otherwise.

The insurer has a small expected gain, and the farmer a small expected loss, but the farmer avoids the spiky eventuality where his children starve (he can take his gained 18X BCH to the market to buy enough food to feed his children). Hedging risk seems fundamental for a subsistence farmer, yet probably few if any subsistence farmers can get insured through any normal channel. Bets like this can likewise be used to hedge the risk of building a bigger farm so that the farmer can more safely build his way out of poverty.

This opens many new win-win transactions and is what I mean by money network effects being driven more than just holding and basic payments. We are accustomed to thinking of simple payment as more fundamental than insurance, but I suggest this is only because the inherent friction of trusting third parties makes it so. With that friction eliminated, is insurance any less fundamental than money? If PAY and HEDGE (or BET) are two buttons side by side in a simple wallet app, and they work equally securely and trustlessly, I think at least for those facing spiky risks like subsistence farmers these functions will be seen as equally fundamental, equally bound up in what constitutes sound money for them.

*I can't recall if there is already a way to have a tx with inputs from multiple parties in this way
 

Roy Badami

Active Member
Dec 27, 2015
140
203
So, seems to be that the Bitcoin SV roadmap involves removing P2SH (because it wasn't in Satoshi's original code). I wonder how many people actually support that? It would destroy the entire ecosystem around multisig, for one thing. (Not to mention his plan to somehow ban burning of coins, and to salvage all burnt coins.)

 
This is not a simple task, and it will need to occur in stages. We will need to have non-standard scripts accepted by miners, and we will need to accept old P2SH transactions as we stop any new ones being added.
I don't ever think this is a good idea, but at least they are aware what could go wrong.

The concept of a soft fork is the most insidious attack on Bitcoin to have been spawned. But; it is no longer valid. All consensus rules in Bitcoin will be handled using the only way that works: PoW and hard forks.
As combining a hard with a soft fork, like ABC loves to do, is a guarantee to permanently split the chain, I think this is not the worst idea.

Haha, this is the only one of my posts on r/btc last days that did not get downvoted to hell
https://old.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/9vjs58/we_need_to_stop_csw_can_we_do_a_soft_fork_so_that/
 
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Roy Badami

Active Member
Dec 27, 2015
140
203
The point is (for those who like the technical changes that SV is proposing for this month): what do you think of SV's future roadmap?
 

Peter R

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,398
5,595
I wouldn't want to comment on CSW's attitude, from what I can tell his math always verified when I had to check.
IIRC, you are a physics professor or a physics PhD from Greece. I am surprised to hear you say this. When I read any of his technical papers, especially the ones that involve math, all I see is technobabble and provably-incorrect math (or math copied verbatim from another paper). His paper on the Fallacy of Selfish Mining is a good example, the first few sections of which I reviewed here, before he removed the paper from SSRN.

In fact, I haven't even been able to find a lower-bound on his mathematical knowledge, and we've had one "in person" whiteboard session too. In our whiteboard session, we couldn't even agree to the equation for the probability that a miner with fraction x of the hash power finds the next block (the equation is P = x). My feeling is that he doesn't have any mathematical skills whatsoever. Instead, he's done a bit of googling and reading and knows enough big words to pull the wool over some people's eyes.

I know @awemany, @go1111111 and @chriswilmer all have strong math skills, and I think they would agree with my assessment of CSW's "mathematical contributions to bitcoin."
 
The point is (for those who like the technical changes that SV is proposing for this month): what do you think of SV's future roadmap?
It can't be wronger than splitting the chain with a hard soft fork every six month to introduce changes that are not needed, but enforced even when they are controversial.

With anything else - I don't believe a single word of CSW, as long as it is no code. So there is not much to say about the roadmap ;:)

Except that I like the idea to freeze the protocol as long as there is no real important issue (like the DAA was, for example). But as I said - I don't believe in words of CSW, even if I like them.

--

btw, @satoshis_sockpuppet you proposed the onliest good plan how to continue on ABC-BCH without it deforming to ABCcoin. Did you notice that @Mengerian still has not given an answer if he will support your proposal? He will not. It's a dead end.
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
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So, seems to be that the Bitcoin SV roadmap involves removing P2SH (because it wasn't in Satoshi's original code). I wonder how many people actually support that? It would destroy the entire ecosystem around multisig, for one thing. (Not to mention his plan to somehow ban burning of coins, and to salvage all burnt coins.)

not really. OPCHECKMULTISIG was always a thing, altho perhaps much larger data-wise, not to mention perhaps more cumbersome. i've never used multisig so i really don't know.

what i do know is that p2sh has been abused, imo, to the point that all manner of core dev driven tools/schemes/manipulations have been hidden behind the redeem script. one of my pet peeves.
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
I'm loving electron Cash coin control. I' not going to be manipulated like this, but I agree with the principal of not splitting.
i've been exploring this but haven't been able to determine if EC also allows specific UTXO control to avoid the marking of certain addresses that have received tracking dust most probably from Chainanalysis. can it do this?
 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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@freetrader @cypherdoc

BU (and maybe ABC and others, can't check) has a "Lock" option for every input in the Coin Selection window. You have to right-click the input to see it.
well then, that's definitely something both Electrum and Electron Cash should implement.
 
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i've been exploring this but haven't been able to determine if EC also allows specific UTXO control to avoid the marking of certain addresses that have received tracking dust most probably from Chainanalysis. can it do this?
you can freeze addresses, so that they are not selected in transaction composition. But imho you can't do this with coins.

However, you can simple spend your coins directly, so they are unaffected by any kind of dust.