Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

awemany

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Aug 19, 2015
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For me it was choosing not to purchase shares in Apple Computer Inc at a time when to do so would have made me stupendously rich.
I see. Well, we're not purchasing or owning shares of nChain, though (or at least I guess most of us are not...).

Also, although I see parallels of forming pseudo-religions around products and/or spokespeople, I have not seen Steve Jobs do what CSW did and does.

I hope you are not arguing we rally behind him because he could be the next Jobs?

BCH is also not a company. It is an open ecosystem. CSW gets the pushback he deserves, and I think there should be even more pushback.
 

freetrader

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And the argument that CSW is playing the role of entrepreneur instead of academic does not hold much water for me. He's publishing what look like serious research papers, together with other real academics.

He's rolled out a wheelbarrow full of academic degrees, undoubtedly in support of his academic credentials.

He may be a skilled businessman as well, but as a researcher, I'm sure he would welcome rigorous examination of his scientific work. Even if he doesn't, he will get some nevertheless.
 

freetrader

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the Gold Collapsing Craig Wright up thread...

:cry::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::sneaky::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::D:p

Hey I saw this paper on twitter and i'm wondering if anyone here has discredited it or called it technobabble yet:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3065857
found it in this twitter thread


I guess I'm going to set down and try to read it. o_O
Tell me if you find in that paper what characteristics of the Bitcoin network they used as a basis for their simulation model. The only thing I see described is the 5200 total number of nodes at some historic point, but not their breakdown into miners, relay nodes etc.

They claim to have constructed an elaborate scheme that shadows the real Bitcoin network to construct an accurate model, even down to determining router types between hops. Yet they don't publish even statistics for their results of this. Fascinating!
Further results will be published separately to limit the size of papers.
 
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solex

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AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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Those kind of assertions aren't worth trying to argue against. If you'd like to learn about how things are done in ABC, feel free to reach out to me privately.
Thanks, and apologies, there is a typo there but regardless it doesn't communicate my intent. I should have said something like below which is more in line with what I was trying to communicate:

To me ABC seems less cognitively diverse than BU, from the outside deadalnix appears to manage the implementation in a similar vein to the Lynix project - as benevolent dictator.

My concern being Bitcoin as a whole should not be run as a benevolent dictatorship, ABC arguably should, all implementations should have a governance model that is optimized for there working methods. Miners should not all be running the same software, but supporting the same protocols.
 

AdrianX

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CSW gets the pushback he deserves, and I think there should be even more pushback.
Criticism, skepticism, calling for him to be held to a higher standard given the attention he gets, is what I read when you say "pushback", and to that, I agree.

I think everyone in this space needs to be more constructive, civil, and considerate, we are not machines but people. (I'm guilty here)

When CSW starts breaking things while insisting he's fixing stuff like drilling a hole in the Bitcoin Cash hull - pulling a Maxwell, claiming he's fixing it. That's where I'd draw the line on considerate behavior.

So far I have seen a high noise to signal ratio, well given the amount of noise. CSW appears to be contributing to BCH's success more positive than 99% of people invested in it even after you put all the contested theoretical technobabble aside, he and Peter both draw an inordinate amount of inconsiderate and destructive attention and it is noticeable.
 
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witly

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Feb 1, 2017
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As an outsider I find the war against csw is getting irrational. It almost looks like the anger comes from jealousy of the attention csw got. csw does not look like a super nice guy for everybody but on the other hand he has good intention and he is contributing to bitcoin cash. Bitcoin cash is still in its very early stage and we should welcome everyone who wants to contribute to contribute regardless of their personality or way of doing things. No body own bitcoin cash and no body is the face of bitcoin cash. Csw is just one guy who is working on bitcoin cash. Even if he committed a crime, that is his own problem not bitcoin cash's problem, so no need to waste so much time to attack him. Do not fall in Core's trap to put csw as the face of bitcoin cash then divide and conquer!
 

awemany

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Aug 19, 2015
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So far I have seen a high noise to signal ratio, well given the amount of noise. CSW appears to be contributing to BCH's success more positive than 99% of people invested in it even after after you put all the contested theoretical contributions aside, he and Peter both draw an inordinate about of inconsiderate and destructive attention and it is noticeable.
Given that I don't like building sandcastles out of bullshit but rather want to build the new money for the world, I don't see the contributions at all as positive as you do.

I actually think disagreement and even some infighting is very healthy, as it shows me people care about Bitcoin/BCH and - as an additional reason on my side of this disagreement - do not want a Faketoshi as the spokesperson of BCH.

Of course, it is also a potential drain of energy and spending 100% of one's time debunking CSW's bullshit might not be the most productive use. But I think most of us who are annoyed by him know that quite well.

However, the conflict around CSW and his bullshitting needs to be very visible for anyone new or unaware to notice that there's at least two sides to this and be able to form their own opinion, and Peter did a great job there.

On /r/btc, you sometimes get the impression we have an army of people cheering him on, lots of new accounts licking his boots. Whereas lots of the old-timers, including yourself, including most of BU, are at least somewhat critical and aware of him bullshitting.

You seem to want a more mellow approach, I guess, but I think the stronger pushback that Peter did is actually very valuable. I guess we simply have to agree to disagree on this.

If anything, I see failure of nChain and CSW to overtake/usurp BCH as the positive contribution their existence is (indirectly) causing in the space. And with their software patent threat, we're not past this danger yet.

As you say, BU and nChain separating is probably a blessing in disguise.
 

Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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I have accompanied a few complex projects with banks and insurance companies.
The team leader was a non-academic polymath und has been called a liar, charlatan, clown and con artist by the nerds, architects, risk managers, engineers, forex dealers etc., because he didn't know the deeper details of their discipline and indeed lied occasionally.

None of those experts have been able to manage those complex, multidisciplinary projects; and different banks and insurance companies repeatedly came back to the 'clown' to ask him to initiate and manage those projects, even though (or because) they knew his character and habits.
 
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Tomothy

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Mar 14, 2016
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On /r/btc, you sometimes get the impression we have an army of people cheering him on, lots of new accounts licking his boots. Whereas lots of the old-timers, including yourself, including most of BU, are at least somewhat critical and aware of him bullshitting.
I think you do have an army of people who are in fact cheering Craig on. (EDIT-ADD-, maybe some of those people are sockpuppets and bots or as has been named elsewhere, minions, but maybe some people believe.) A lot of people like Craig. Although it's a small and limited skewed sample size, you look at the exodus between users and slack activity between btcchat with craig and peter and then just peter, and then bchchat with craig. Once Craig left, people migrated and followed him. People are intrigued by the Satoshi myth and legend regardless of whether it contains inaccuracies.Simply by using that legend, Craig preaches to the masses and Bitcoin Cash is as close to a religion or dogma as many other things.

Like it or not, there are only a few people who the public sees as 'the face' of Bitcoin Cash. Arguably I would say it's Roger, Jihan, and Craig. Now I think also you have RyanxCharles, Deadalnix, PeterR, maybe Tomas & Clemens and then lots of other handles/names getting more exposure. There have also been some great comments at time from R.Dillenger but he keeps a very low profile. But most of these people aren't out on TV conducting interviews and stirring up news. So like it or not, the face of Bitcoin Cash, by 90% of the public is probably still Roger and then Craig or vice versa. Jihan's been very quiet lately which is dis-concerning. This might not be something that's liked by many people, 'scammers' being the face of bitcoin cash, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

At the end of the day, somebody still has to sell Bitcoin Cash to the world. Who is going to take up the mantle and push for global adoption? And this adoption, sure it can be by mom and pop shops, but someone needs to be networking and targeting the large payment processors, the banks, the insurance company's and nation states.


https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nchain-releases-nakasendo-software-development-kit-300629525.html
 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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@Tomothy

Nice link.

Has anyone else mentioned here that a fundamental flaw with patents is that it effectively eliminates any further optimization or development of the underlying technology by the wider open source community? No one else has an incentive to help, especially the non BCH development community. This seems to me to be a solid reason to avoid the inclusion of any nchain tech into BCH.
 

Tomothy

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Mar 14, 2016
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"This seems to me to be a solid reason to avoid the inclusion of any nchain tech into BCH."

So, how would you go about doing this? Afaik, NChain tech isn't at the protocol level. So after the 5/2018 fork; their tech is all built on top using the updated protocol. I'm not sure how you avoid the inclusion of nchain tech since they've simply built on top of BCH. I guess the preventative measure would be to not allow the 5/2018 HF to pass or to try a spinoff contentious fork. I feel you then start to get into what's a 'spam' transaction argument again. Worse, what if Nchain tech works AS IS and simply costs more or is more complicated to implement as it currently stands. I'm not sure what progress is but I'm also not sure how or why it's prevented.

This all leads to difficult questions about what BCH is, who it's for, and how it should be used. Depending on who you talk to, I'm sure you'll get a different answer.


Goodbye Post from Clemens
https://www.yours.org/content/my-good-bye-to-yours-9fc1a8e88cb1

"As for myself, I will be doing what I love doing most: starting something from zero. My tentative plan is to build tools that will enable advanced applications on top of Bitcoin Cash. The goal is to make Bitcoin Cash better. "


So, NCHAIN is making a product, they probably will try to seek to profit from that product as well at some point in time most likely. Say Clemens tools if he ultimately makes them also have a profit model for him as well, where do the lines get drawn on what technology can get patented, what can't get patented, and who gets to profit from that work?

Another question is whether we want technology created specifically to benefit BCH to be used by competing coins/projects, i.e., btc/ltc/eth/etc/xmr whatever. Again, I don't have an easy answer to these philosophical questions and I think they are philosophical in nature. However I see this as a war and I want my side to win at all costs.
 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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Maybe the answer is to take any released nchain tech and tweek it just enough to make it difficult to be attacked in a court of law.