Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[Justus Ranvier]

@awemany There are a lot of ways to get physical exercise wrong, and by analogy there must be a lot of ways to get moral and social exercise wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBuGpGNuuMErI27mgDpcXkQ/videos

You can use the handicap principle as a quality estimate. If an activity isn't difficult then it probably isn't particularly valuable.

Superstitions are easy and don't create any meaningful obligations, so they are unlikely to provide any exercise benefit.

 

[Justus Ranvier]

Hm, the outflow rate of employees from Blockstream at the moment really makes the "mission accomplished, Bitcoin destroyed" "conspiracy theory" look very likely...

Years ago when this thread was still on bitcointalk.org and when the founding of Blockstream was first announced, Greg Maxwell made a point to mention their ironclad employment agreements that proof that Blockstream could never be taken over and turned to evil.

Ever since he left Blockstream I wonder if those terms he talked about are still in place (assuming he was telling the truth originally). Blockstream has gone through several raises since their seed round and it's possible that one of them might have required the founders to give up their golden parachutes.

 

[Bagatell]

Blockstream and truth in the same sentence?

 

[satoshis_sockpuppet]

Wait, there's more folks leaving Blockstream?

https://www.coindesk.com/blockstream-devs-depart-gorlick-dilley-world-computer/


Hm looks there will be a (small ?) time window now to go bagatelli berserk ~8 BCH for 1 BTC looks like an awesome deal to me.

 

[Zarathustra]

@Zarathustra

I'm not sure with this. Free markets and free societies allow you to decide how much lifetime you invest to get how much money, depending on luck and skills. When I got this perspective, my live as a freelancer became way more free and fun.

Free markets and free societies are oxymorons. The market is a state bastard and societies represent the hypercollectivisation of the Dunbar communities by organized violence.

What you want is a stateless society, but not with markets, but more with communities or tribes.

What I want is irrelevant. I just say that stateless communities *never* had markets, because they don't have to generate taxes on the market.

I don't really believe in this Rousseau story of the lucky and nice barbarians. Members of such a society will waste so much time for stupid things, like melting, washing, gardening, cooking, while being less productive in it, because there is less division of labor, so every work that is done is some kind of waste, as it could be done more effective. For one Kilogram of spelt flour you need 28,000 ears. Imagine how much work you have to do just to eat a slice of bread. And I'm sure it will taste less good than the bread you just buy for 3 minutes of your worktime at the bakery.

Neither Rousseau nor the Austrian aristocrats from Vienna had knowledge in anthropology in general and the invention of patriarchy in particular. You understand German:

http://www.dasgelbeforum.net/forum_entry.php?id=246391

Best literature ever:

Gerhard Bott - Die Erfindung der Götter

http://gerhardbott.de/

Summary in English:

http://gerhardbott.de/das-buch/summary-in-english.html

I don't think that you live a luckier live if you need to invest more time of a more stupid and exhausting work to get less results. I rather think it is frustrating and boring. Also a tribal society tends to consume all what it produces, which is nice for ecology, but will result in recurrently intervals of shortage of everything. And hungry, desparated humans are not nice to each other. There is a tremendous amount of historic proofs what economic crisis do with human souls ...

There is no shortage in the rain forest. Wars among the inuit? They are not stupid. War is no business in a stateless environment. Doesn't make sense there. Never did. Too risky.

 

[Richy_T]

And I don't understand how other people are so polite towards the LN devs.

If you just come straight up against it, you'll come off as a hater and people will just dismiss you as an asshole. Nothing gained.

It is a bit concern-trollish to extol the virtues and then shit all over the crappy bits but that is the world we live in.

 

[Richy_T]

I would like to see some real science on what the optimal outcome should be.

See, there's an issue there. That assumes that utilitarianism is the goal. The issue for many of us is that in the case of monkey see, monkey do, the monkey has not violated the non-aggression principle. The way to keep a secret is to keep a secret.

Now, I do see a lot of professed libertarians who support "IP" so this is definitely an issue of contention (In my opinion, they are just plain wrong and they are going through some mental gymnastics to rationalize their preconceptions but, whatever).

On a more pragmatic view, we live in a society that is full of people who pay only lip service to freedom so we are going to end up with laws that support "IP" (which is not a real thing. It is a term invented with the intention to confer they status of property on to things which are not). I can live with that to some extent but the "IP" laws we do have have become vastly distorted beyond their original intentions (which were supposed to be to support the public good, not for the enrichment of individuals or corporations).

 

[Zarathustra]

They would, if they could. Peacocks are not known to be able to dig coal out of the ground or even harness nuclear fission.

They don't because they are not sick. Citizens are sick, and that's the reason why they dig coal and gold out of the ground to deliver it to their rulers. Peacocks and homines sapientes are able to find their targets in the forest. A citizen (homo oeconomicus / idiot savant / happy slave) is completely helpless and stupid compared to those non-degenerated species. Citizens are only better in self-flagellation; kneel down and praying to their disgusting idols. Suicide is another great invention of the civilized/nationalized homo sapiens. 'Progress' has a price...

 

[lunar]

The IP debate will go on for a while. I for one am happy to watch and see how it progresses. My arguments so far have not been to defend current IP laws, most will agree they are a horribly out of date, nationalised, bureaucratic nightmare, wholly unenforceable in a global internet age.
The goal was to think about the future in a blockchain governed world.

One last hypothetical on @Mengerian point about

I'm saying you can't simultaneously have "Intellectual Property" while respecting legitimate property rights.

Let's say I worked in the framing shop that @coin_artist used and took a hi res copy of her picture without her knowledge, then published online without consent.

In this scenario she had never intended to publish her work, as she was heading home to hang it on the wall as an amazing cold storage painting. Sure enough someone took her bitcoins and also reduced the value of the artwork. For the sake of argument, the painting also had counterparty tokens with company shares encoded at the same address. (To remove the money is not property argument)

who committed the crime? Me? The person who took the Bitcoins, or another person who is now selling prints of the painting?

I think Stephen Wolfram is right here. Value in the future will be derived from formulating our thoughts and inventions into sufficiently smart computers. This action will be like making a smart contract and can be issued on a blockchain with usage rights like IP. I doubt the laws that emerge will be anything like they are today, but I have a hunch some sort of global IP common law will spontaneously appear and that we (for the most part) all live by.

 

[AdrianX]

Here is a crazy observation, Adam Back tends to projects his views onto others subconsciously or consciously in defence of his position. The most notable example is accusing Gavin Andreson of doing a Coup to take over bitcoin when Gavin literally was in control of the Bitcoin GitHub, and Adam had been in the Bitcoin for about a year.

Needless to say, the metaphor of Core being the "evil" one ring that controls them all (bitcoin nodes) has been floating around here for as long as this Blockstream's infamous coup. (employing the most prominent developers pushing their bitcoin code into the bitcoin consensus rules - Segwit)

And here is Adam Back trying to own the narrative by spinning this metaphor. This is hilarious.

[doublepost=1518047103][/doublepost]On a more positive note here is some good reading - long but pertinent.

http://markwilcox.com/articles/03/

 

[Richy_T]

Hm, the outflow rate of employees from Blockstream at the moment really makes the "mission accomplished, Bitcoin destroyed" "conspiracy theory" look very likely...

 

[Richy_T]

I think Stephen Wolfram is right here. Value in the future will be derived from formulating our thoughts and inventions into sufficiently smart computers. This action will be like making a smart contract and can be issued on a blockchain with usage rights like IP.

I think you fall into the Ethereum trap here of assuming/hoping that everything can be governed by smart contracts. While I think it's a fantastically powerful paradigm, I think it's a mistake to think it can apply to certain things that fall outside its scope. (This is an error that advocates of the lightning network repeat in spades).

How do you enforce copyright, for example, when someone in Starbucks is reading the latest Stephen King novel (with appropriate Amazon end-user reader license) when I am peeking over their shoulder wearing the latest incarnation of Google Glass with no contractual obligation.

"IP" works as long as no one looks at it too hard and most of those who are involved with it benefit from its presence. It falls apart under scrutiny as the continued presence of torrenting attests. And just check with anyone who has had their ideas appropriated by the Chinese with impunity.
[doublepost=1518069468][/doublepost]

who committed the crime? Me? The person who took the Bitcoins, or another person who is now selling prints of the painting?

There is a famous example that might shine light on this question.

http://www.debate.org/forums/Philosophy/topic/27255/
[doublepost=1518069777,1518069141][/doublepost]

'Progress' has a price...

And benefits. Lots and lots of benefits. Any time I feel sad about my place in history, I walk into the kitchen and open my fridge.

 

[Zarathustra]

@Richy_T
"And benefits. Lots and lots of benefits. Any time I feel sad about my place in history, I walk into the kitchen and open my fridge."

Yes, your debt to the New Idol is a great production/destruction machine. But it doesn't make this species and the planet healthy again. The Citizen is something to be overcome. What have you done to overcome Citizenship?

Never forget:
There, where the state ceaseth—there only commenceth the man who is not superfluous: there commenceth the song of the necessary ones, the single and irreplaceable melody.

 

[molecular]

This might be a higher quality of the sound:


EDIT: If it's still too shitty quality for your high end hifi gear and your sensitive ears, let me know. It's recorded in a good studio, so I will get access to it when I ask. I just don't have the gear/ears to tell the difference.

EDIT2: And your donation is welcome. I don't get anything, it all goes to the four guys in the band.

It may or may not be "too shitty" and it's hard for me to check: maybe I'm just confused, but it seems there is no download option on soundcloud any more (?) so I can't play it without a browser which I don't have on the hifi.
[doublepost=1518082299,1518081573][/doublepost]

It's really unbelievable. TA genius @masterluc, aka PentarhUdi painted this in August:

https://www.tradingview.com/chart/BTCUSD/3RjQGYZp-No-resistance-till-15000-when-3500-will-break-up/

He isn't active on tradingview anymore. This is his today's post on VK.com:

https://vk.com/bitcoin_vanga?w=wall-130254204_8317

Correction more or less over. Elliott wave 5 goes to 100K.

Difficult to believe. That would mean that either BTC will implement a scaling solution, or we have to expect an even bigger wave of irrational exuberance on the non-Cash chain. Or wave 5 includes the total value of both forks.

masterluc is amazing. He called the "multi-year bear market" at the late 2013 bubble top (while everyone (me included) said: "multiple years?!? this is impossible!!!"). He's been wrong at times, too, though, but not on his "large" calls afaik.

 

[molecular]

BCH/BTC poloniex:

*pop* ?

 

[hodl]

@awemany

[doublepost=1518097651][/doublepost]

masterluc is amazing. He called the "multi-year bear market" at the late 2013 bubble top (while everyone (me included) said: "multiple years?!? this is impossible!!!"). He's been wrong at times, too, though, but not on his "large" calls afaik

He and I were going at it back and forth years ago when the price was in double digits or earlier. He was very bearish alot of the time. I've consistently said to buy on dips and hodl on ramps all these years. My problem with him is he tries to call every wave which is fraught with difficulty. I also don't like Elliott Wave. I don't think I was ever bearish until 8/1/17. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not that it matters anymore

 

[hodl]

now i'm beginning to think they're being attacked by concern trolls, altho they did hold my withdrawal up for a week and a half enforcing AML/KYC.

 

[79b79aa8]

always a good feeling to flee a lagging exchange ...

isn't it interesting how in bitcoin trading one always gets a second chance? price always seems to retrace, whether on the way up or down, at least once, and to hover for a while. so once you've decided on a price point, it's about being patient, you will hit it (not talking of course about FOMOing after being 5 years late to the party).

for example, after some really aggressive trading and what seemed like big risks, i norwayed and then bagatelled last year, achieving an average 15% BCHBTC ... which is what you get if you coolly do the same as we speak.

the question in my mind is not about the conversion, but at which point to buy BCH with fresh fiat, 2014-style. meanwhile, shorting BTC .

 

[Richy_T]

Yes, your debt to the New Idol is a great production/destruction machine. But it doesn't make this species and the planet healthy again. The Citizen is something to be overcome. What have you done to overcome Citizenship?

The way we live is admitedly far from ideal but I'll take it over dying young from starvation, some easily treated infection/disease or being eaten by a mountain lion. As to what I do, I try to live with the mindset of a free man and preach the ideals of liberty whenever it seems it would make a difference (and often when it won't). To quote a fictional character from a book,

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

 

[Bagatell]

@79b79aa8

You're describing a triad of pairs. Where BCH/XBT X XBT/EUR = BCH/EUR. As I see it if you want to short XBT to the ground you can only really go long one of the others and HODL. Short term shorts gives XBT value as a trading commodity.

edit

thinking about it trading BCH/EUR would be more effective.