Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

sickpig

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
926
2,541
Slightly OT, I never liked or bought into the arguments for why core (although they we're called core at the time) limited opcodes in the first place. It was the first example of "we need to do this for 'security'" but they never showed what the actual problems were or why they couldn't easily be addressed.
To be fair actual Core devs weren't around when Hal Finney and Ray Dillinger (aka bear, aka cryddit) convinced Satoshi to disable some OP_CODEs.

Interestingly enough Hal was the one that convinced Satoshi to put in place the 1MB max block size limit.

edit: fix Ray first alias s/beae/bear/
 
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torusJKL

Active Member
Nov 30, 2016
497
1,156
The fear that they might just be successful is what keeps me from shifting more towards BCH.
Around 40% of the block reward comes from fees. And it had been 20% during all of the last difficulty adjustment period.

Miners now depend on these fees because the difficulty has already priced them in.

They have no incentive to rise the block size on the SegWit chain and loose the 40% block reward.

I predict either a minority fork where the majority will move to Bitcoin Cash or as a second option a PoW change where all miners will move to Bitcoin Cash.
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
Miners now depend on these fees because the difficulty has already priced them in.
@torusJKL: Did you do the math on mining profitability? My impression was that the miners are highly profitable at the moment (with or without fees). So that would be an interesting analysis.
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
I am lately browsing rBitcoin to figure out their mood regarding fee problems and blocksize increases.

What is really funny is that I now see quite a few RES tagged folks over there who are quite strong bigblockers on BCH, furthering the 'layer2, lightning, stupid Roger Ver and so forth' rhetoric over there.

I guess that's incentives at work.
 

79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
core went full @Putin, and now they won't be able to put the genie back in the bottle . . . o dear, dear.

so it just dawned on me . . . in the event of the flippening, i wouldn't want the BTC ticker back. bitcoin shall proudly wear its battle scars: the exodus block, and 'BCH'.

it comes out of the early phase hardened and wise.


EDIT: BTW, is that a hissing sound i hear?
 
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rocks

Active Member
Sep 24, 2015
586
2,284
You are not alone with suspicion that Core wants to increase the block size.

Eli Afram just released an article on this subject.
Is Core laying the groundwork for a blocksize increase?
That quote from Adam says it all, Cypherdoc called it first in 2014 (what happened to him BTW).

This is all about control. segwit2x shifted control from blockstream which is why it was killed. Now that control has been maintained core is free to bump by 2MB in an emergency hard fork while maintaining control (despite claiming for years that hard forks take years of careful planning).

It will be positioned as "core is responding to user requests" or "core is caving". But neither of these are true, if it was we would have segwit2x. If core implements a 2MB bump so soon after killing segwit2x, then the only answer is it was done this way to maintain control.

That is why I like the BCH roadmap, it offers more than just larger block scaling.

BTW, core's economic illiteracy knows no bounds. They clearly think they need to: 1) keep fees high enough to push people to 2nd layer solutions (they probably think the $1-$10 range), but 2) not let fees get so high that people leave BTC altogether. The problem not that controlling fees in this manner is probably impossible, the problem is even if they achieve it somehow it still simply pushes people to other chains with sub 1 cent fees. On top of that different regions of the world will respond to fees very differently, a $1 fee means something very different to a person in the US vs a person in Venezuela for example.
[doublepost=1513878580][/doublepost]
To be fair actual Core devs weren't around when Hal Finney and Ray Dillinger (aka beae, aka cryddit) convinced Satoshi to disable some OP_CODEs.

Interestingly enough Hal was the one that convinced Satoshi to put in place the 1MB max block size limit.
Thanks I did not know that history. Very interesting.
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
@rocks:
That quote from Adam says it all, Cypherdoc called it first in 2014 (what happened to him BTW).
I am quite sure he's among us and still reading here. For whatever reasons (maybe due to his court case), he's using a different nick now, though. He's also active on reddit AFAICS. Read carefully and you'll figure who he is. The writing is unforgeable :)

That is why I like the BCH roadmap, it offers more than just larger block scaling.
Me too. But the risk that they could somehow get through with that is IMO what's keeping it from flippening yet.
 

wrstuv31

Member
Nov 26, 2017
76
208
There's all kinds of ideas now what Core could be scheming. Maybe they are trying to go for a blocksize increase themselves now. That's what they urgently need, as everyone knows. Maybe they are also trying to play the waiting game with the promises in front of the hamster wheel just a little bit longer.

They come close to increasing block size (BTC run up) but pull back last minute due to a false flag event or some spam attack on the BCH chain.
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
Gmax pops the champagne to celebrate high fees.
I'd also personally prefer to pay lower fees-- current levels even challenge my old comparison with wire transfer costs-- but we should look most strongly at difficult to forge market signals rather than just claims-- segwit usage gives us a pretty good indicator since most users would get a 50-70% fee reduction without even considering the second order effects from increased capacity.
In other words, "If people aren't using Segwit, they must not want a blocksize increase very much. They must not mind the fees, despite easy-to-fake claims to the contrary."

Reading between the lines in the thread, it seems like the rest of them are freaking out but really timid about airing their misgivings. "I wonder if this is of some concern to some." Hushed tones, soft phrasing.
 
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79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
ROFL
producing fee paying backlogs needed to stabilize consensus progress as the subsidy declines
what in the world does that mean?

and in any case, just when is the subsidy running out, and by dint of what superior foresight should this perceived problem be addressed now?

I've also seen some evidence that a portion of the current high rate congestion is contrived traffic.
yeah sure, someone is sending enough transactions to clog the network, at $10, $20, $30/transaction, block after block, day after day . . . aha, that's it.

i think those who are afraid Core is masterminding an 11th hour blocksize increase can relax. they're going down with the boat.


also, pay attention to the language:
producing fee paying backlogs
stabilize consensus progress
perhaps that market signal isn't efficient yet. But we should get it there
this guy really thinks he is singlehandedly steering the bitcoin economy. delusional egomania.

mayday!
 
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Justus Ranvier

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
875
3,746
Came across this gem while doing a search to make sure that I wasn't the only one who thinks that whoever used floating point in the bitcoind RPC deserves to burn at the stake.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=13837.msg754860#msg754860

I personally started to think that the current milieu here is hopeless. The only hope is that the currently involved software designers fall of the face of the Earth's Internet and get replaced by a new blood.
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
I suspect that two..three years down the road, some folks will wish that they didn't tweet so much:

https://archive.fo/NPAnB

Satoshi also really avoided that kind of language and politicking ...

@Justus Ranvier : Yes, but that has long been fixed, or am I wrong? I know that e.g. the python mininode code uses the "Decimal" class exactly to exactly avoid dealing with floats?

Except for some transaction priority calculations and returning float difficulty from RPC (presumably for graphing, where float is harmless IMO), I don't really see any floating point code in the client anymore.

I just grepped through Core0.14.
[doublepost=1513936335][/doublepost]@Zangelbert Bingledack : Predicted it :D Wow that was fast! :)


Link, hopefully without the twitter-embedding-brokeness.
 
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satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
Hehe, a good analogy on /r/bitcoin for a change: *


Funny how Stark talks about it being impossible, to validate and distribute every coffee transaction in the world to every "node", while the product she is promoting is doing exactly that. In a worse and less effective way than Bitcoin.

* And if /r/bitcoin people now start to realize, that "teleportation" is just imagination for the foreseeable future...
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
I had to smile when I saw the overlord of buttcoiners (also a honest professor of CS) use the tippr bot :)

Not that he'll give in:

lol
[doublepost=1513945807,1513944841][/doublepost]Sorry for the spam attack on the forum, but after a few days of bitcoin-abstinence you really get that "the core stuff is so bizarre" feeling as lively as ever.
Remember, how easy and fast SW deployment was going to be? (Btw, readin twitter discussions between Erik and core shills was awesome! ROFL).

The core wallet still doesn't have SW implemented:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11403

37 files changed, a PR from 9/26 with 328 comments..

But coinbase etc. are evil and blocking Bitcoin's success because they don't implement SW now!! (On their systems managing billions of dollars worth of BTC).

One can just laugh at that madness. Maybe the "big blockers" (==Sane Bitcoiners) always overestimated core and their mob. Maybe there has never been a game of chess. Just what everybody sees in plain sight. A bunch of morons with an inflated ego who will destroy a system worth billions.
 

Justus Ranvier

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
875
3,746
Except for some transaction priority calculations and returning float difficulty from RPC (presumably for graphing, where float is harmless IMO), I don't really see any floating point code in the client anymore.
As far as I know it was only ever the json rpc interface that used floats to represent amounts. Satoshi did the right thing and used integers in all the code he wrote.

Whoever first added rpc to the client is to blame for a mess which affects many clients other than bitcoind because most coins copied the bitcoind rpc code.