Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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awemany said:
@Zarathustra

I think you are making it too simple. How can there be 'open borders' if all borders are gone and replaced with private property boundaries? Similarly, if I trade with my neighbor, does that mean he has a right to freely use my property? That seems to be the conclusion of your attitude of "Open borders for money and goods, but closed borders for humans. Ridiculous ideology." above, taken together with an 'abolish the state' stance.

Mind you, I like free movement and less borders. But I am also aware that social cohesion and common culture + customs helps in lifting exactly those borders. Maybe there is some kind of unifying human element underlying all cultures that, when progressing towards that realization, allows us to remove borders and barriers.

But right now, that sounds very much like an unrealistic, utopian hope. And current politics in many places of the world seem to move us toward less national borders, only for those borders to be replaced by borders between neighboring city ghettos of different cultural markup. The idea of a 'no-go area' is the idea of a border, in disguise. Goes for Dubai as much as it goes for Berlin or London. Different laws for different groups of people - a medieval idea.

The world is shades of gray. This is why I call myself 'libertarian leaning'. Ideals instead of ideology. I have seen too many people infected by longing for their own variants of utopias. I am also becoming more and more of an "unapologetic westerner", seeing the value of enlightenment, separation of powers and of church and state. All while the west disintegrates on those very fronts.
Yes, everything that happens is the reality and everything that doesn't happen is an utopia. Your call for compromising with the compromised ones turned out to be an utopia. Totalitarians and Libertarians cannot be unified. But I won't call the state to help to seperate (segregate) us from them.
Should I call the state to prevent people (who I'm doing business with) from visiting 'my' country?
I think those are strange ideals.
 
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AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
2,097
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bitco.in
I don't know where crazy starts or ends but I do know that whats happened to date is crazier than I ever imagined so why not nudge it give it a little push, and see if we can get a big ball rolling.

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Bitcoin finally over $10,000 total.* Didn't expect it to happen in this strange form, though. Actually, looking back, maybe I did.
Are you from the future @Zangelbert Bingledack and did you steal a spaceship with an improbability drive?
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yeah i have no clue what i am going to tell my accountant about BTG. i hope she does not fire me.
Why is income not the fiat I deposing into my account. It only materializes as income when I can spend it. Most of my BTG is inaccessible and it may not even exist when I try to assess it.
 
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AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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bitco.in
Satoshi gave birth to Bitcoin, but Bitcoin Cash and BU saved its life.
Th Bitcoin Cash fork is a rather strange phenomenon for me. I would credit success to the innovators and here I will include investors like @Norway who dove in head first and head strong before the fork even launched.

I though he was crazy, I honestly felt bad that he had taken the risk. But here we are, and now there are even more investors thinking 0.2BTC and up could be a reasonable price. It seems to me that saving bitcoin is also built on the crazy people who dared to stand on the front lines. I'm all spent for the 0.05 - 0.2 part of the adoption curve and have some energy left for the 0.3 part and up.
 
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awemany

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Aug 19, 2015
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Folks, I have to admit, it is one thing to fight for 4+ years for a simple blocksize increase because one understands that it is the right thing for technical and economic reasons.

But it is quite another thing to be pretty much compelled to actually use Bitcoin Cash over BTC as the most obvious choice for payment and then being delighted how fast, quick, easy, old-school and with single digit cent fees it all is again :)
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
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The Coming Spinoff Bubble

If someone wanted to make a few million USD in a few weeks, at this unique time in history it seems all they would have to do is make a better fake dev team and website (i.e., spend an extra 5 minutes proofreading) than Bitcoin Gold or Bitcoin Diamond, come up with a plausible gimmick, include a modest premine of 100,000 coins, schedule a fork from BTC (or BCH) in a few weeks from now, contact Bittrex and Poloniex, and let Core fans know. Even if the market price is only $100, boom, instant Lambos! They can even stay fully anonymous ("proof of true cypherpunk status").

So I don't see why there won't be a bunch of people doing these spinoffs in the coming months. Many likely will be worth a few hundred each.

And imagine what happens when the serious people come in. Time for BitThereum / Aetherium? Properly done, that is bound to be worth more than $500 as long as Bitcoin Gold and Diamond are.

In other words, this is the next goldrush, akin to the premined altcoin goldrush. No one noticed it before apparently. And there's not even any need for a premine (if these dumb-money investors even care), they can just change to a brand new PoW and buy up all the appropriate equipment in advance (or if they want to make even more, get an ASIC made just for their new algorithm).

20 of these at an average of $500 each means $10,000 tacked on to the total Bitcoin price (BTC+BCH+BTG+...). And that could just be the beginning, because if BCH rises to say $4000, all those other spinoffs might ride the wave to $1500 or so each, and suddenly we get our $50,000 Bitcoin.

You might be wondering: where does all the extra money really come from? How are we hodlers getting all this free money thrown at us?

Well, when people bring up the "market cap dominance index" I always object. I explain that it's a flawed measure by pointing out Bitcoin is the most widely held and broadly dispersed ledger, whereas something like Ripple is the opposite: most of it is held by a few people who are slowly trickling it into the market. This overconcentration in a few hands vastly increases both the market cap and the per-unit price beyond what it otherwise would be.

This is the situation with many of the "top" coins on coinmarketcap.com. Ethereum started via ICO rather than mining. Dash was heavily ninjamined, NEM heavily premined. Besides Monero and Litecoin,* the story is similar down much of the list.

Puffed up market caps, puffed up coin values...for as long as the wealthy premine beneficiaries hold most of their coins tightly (Vitalik was already wealthy before ETH, and as for the rest, once you make $10 or 20 million, why sell the rest? At least for a few years).

But Bitcoin has always had the opposite dynamic. Its pure mining start, long history of intense ups and downs over many orders of magnitude, and sheer popularity and household name value have made the market cap and unit coin price relatively the least puffed up by any overconcentration of holdings.

The many spinoffs are the undoing of this. They introduce this puffing up effect for Bitcoin that was missing since 2013 when Ripple kicked off the heavily premined altcoin craze. This is where the "free money"** comes from; most other altcoins already got it, but Bitcoin never did.

Hopefully there will be secure software that automates the process of sweeping all these spinoffs so people can sell them.

Also, this flips the dynamic of "gotta sell some bitcoins so I can put a little into each possibly-viable altcoin just in case" on its head. Now the dynamic is, "I already have a lot in every spinoff so no need to sell any BTC or BCH to buy some, in fact gonna sell off the really dumb spinoffs and maybe even take some profits on the more promising ones."

Instead of altcoins (alt-ledgers) eating into the Bitcoin ledger's market cap, the spinoffs feed it. Even the partially premined spinoffs. No more, "How the heck did OmiseGO and NEO come out of nowhere and reach #10? Where were those announced?" Now it's, "You already own it. Take the huge gains if you want 'em."

*even these fairly mined coins experience far more concentration than Bitcoin because they have a shorter history and came in when crypto was already a big thing (rumor has it that at one point Goat owned half of all outstanding litecoins, and imagine how much monero Risto Pietila owns as he went in at the very start with millions

**The trick is, it's not really free; it goes to those who sell off the shit-spinoffs early, from those who buy them early and hold them down to zero. Similar to how Ripple (XRP) doesn't really get a free ride; the money comes from people who keep buying as all the old hodlers and premine beneficiaries finally get around to selling (assuming Ripple eventually fails; if it somehow succeeds, this "free money"/"early puff-up effect" just gets subtracted from the ultimate price gains for holders; instead a pump now and a dump later, it becomes a boost now and blunted gains later) . In other words, overconcentration of holdings leads to easy pumpability, but the tradeoff is *eventually* easy dumpability (but as we've seen with Ripple, "eventually" can be years out in a gradual slide or "glass ceiling"/"blunted gains" effect). Bitcoin will be exposed to that dynamic if the spinoff goldrush happens, and like with Ripple and others, it should first result in a huge pump, the dump coming gradually over months or years (but note that this is superimposed on the normal bull/bear bubble dynamics, and the current crypto bubble is liable to pop at any time; we're talking about a bubble within a bubble here))
 
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Peter R

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Aug 28, 2015
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@Zangelbert Bingledack

It is pretty cool to see our ideas from 2014 playing out nearly as we predicted 3 years earlier. The only thing we got wrong was how long it would take people to realize that "money is a ledger." It's also very cool that these ideas originated from @cypherdoc's original "Gold Collapsing. Bitcoin UP." thread at bitcointalk.org.

Spin-off thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563972.0

Aethereum thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563925.msg6148297#msg6148297
 

Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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Even if there were some kind of limit required for the blockchain, a fixed blocksize cap is most certainly not the way to do it. That breaks Bitcoin in the most horrendous way. The only possible ways that would possibly be acceptable would be 1) a time averaged transaction limit (poor) or 2) Miners controlling the market by setting minimum fees. 2) Is, to me, clearly the correct way to go.
 

Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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Blockstream: Unfortunately, Blockstream Cloud Storage is purely a file storage solution. At this time we are not offering customer access to stored files.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Write-only_memory_(joke)

Considering USDT is a buy-only currency, we're definitely entering Alice in Wonderland territory. Jam tomorrow.

Edit: Possibly relevant quote “And what is the use of a book,” thought Alice, “without pictures or conversation?"
 
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Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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Th Bitcoin Cash fork is a rather strange phenomenon for me. I would credit success to the innovators and here I will include investors like @Norway who dove in head first and head strong before the fork even launched.

I though he was crazy, I honestly felt bad that he had taken the risk. But here we are, and now there are even more investors thinking 0.2BTC and up could be a reasonable price. It seems to me that saving bitcoin is also built on the crazy people who dared to stand on the front lines. I'm all spent for the 0.05 - 0.2 part of the adoption curve and have some energy left for the 0.3 part and up.
Yes, swarm behavior. Congrats to @Norway. Some individuals take the risk and the lead and a road that the majority calls an utopia, until the majority realizes that their reality becomes an utopia.

A majority called a multicultural world an utopia that has to be prevented by organized violence (church and state). While it becomes the reality - every year a bit more - the majority still calls this process of the reality an utopia.
 
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Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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Craig Wright is right: In the 10'000 years old history of the so called economy, it has always been based on credit. Now he says: "With Bitcoin, we're going to start teaching you an equity based economy." Therefore, dear @awemany, that goal would represent the mother of all utopias. Should we promote that utopia? Should we go 'back' to the stone age, where the homo sapiens lived without credit, before he has been replaced by the homo oeconomicus (debt slave)? I think yes, we should!

 
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adamstgbit

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Mar 13, 2016
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Even if there were some kind of limit required for the blockchain, a fixed blocksize cap is most certainly not the way to do it. That breaks Bitcoin in the most horrendous way. The only possible ways that would possibly be acceptable would be 1) a time averaged transaction limit (poor) or 2) Miners controlling the market by setting minimum fees. 2) Is, to me, clearly the correct way to go.
#2 is impossible because strategy of the commons. miners can be expected to do what is most profitable for themselves, we can't reasonably expect some kind of unspoken agreement that only fee >xsat/byte will be included, will hold, such an agreement would crumble the second it meant any profits where being lost.

I dont understand how a blocksize limit determined by nodes / the market,"breaks Bitcoin in the most horrendous way"?? it'll simply make bitcoin mining as profitable as possible, while keeping it as lightwiehgt as possible. and for end users wanting to use bitcoin as cash a 1cent fee more then fine.

IMO,
the first team to get blocks fees to be > then the block reward,
the first team to achieve a blockchain that is self sustaining, While keeping TX fee low enough so we can still call that blockchain "A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System" .
that team wins.
that team is working on bitcoin.
 
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molecular

Active Member
Aug 31, 2015
372
1,391
hehe, I've just been banned from r_bitcoin for "trolling". (temporarily for 90 days)

The triggering post was most likely

But Bitcoin is just hashcash with inflation control.
in the "let's praise Satoshi" thread.

took about 5 minutes. The post itself is shadowbanned, or maybe all my posts disappear when I'm banned?

Edit: the censorship_notifier bot (I can recommend subscribing to this bot) informed me that the above comment was "silently removed".

Edit2: I love the censorship_notifier bot. I'm not alone in seeing my comment shadowbanned in that thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/noncensored_bitcoin/comments/7fnw0w/uncensoredrbitcoin_on_this_9000_occasion_lets/
 
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wrstuv31

Member
Nov 26, 2017
76
208
#2 is impossible because strategy of the commons. miners can be expected to do what is most profitable for themselves, we can't reasonably expect some kind of unspoken agreement that only fee >xsat/byte will be included, will hold, such an agreement would crumble the second it meant any profits where being lost.

Maybe this is a naive approach, please forgive me if that is the case.

Doesn't the tragedy of the commons not apply here, due to the fact that hashrate is not a finite resource? If it was uneconomical for miners to include zero fee transactions then the ones who do will operate at a loss. Am I missing something obvious?
 

Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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The block size limit breaks bitcoin because it makes transaction delivery unpredictable, it makes fees unpredictable and it leaves no excess capacity for when it's needed. It completely wrecks the market forces that guide Bitcoin. That's awfully broken by my measuring. If for some reason the consensus is that transaction throughput needs to be limited, let's find another way. One that lets the market do what it does best.
[doublepost=1511764377][/doublepost]One thing I'd like to see more investigation on and possibly even a fork for investigative purposes is the idea of miners being able to select their own difficulty but the reward being based on that difficulty.
 

Peter R

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Aug 28, 2015
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The notion of mining uneconomically large blocks is similar to the selfish mining paradign or Pyrrhic victory where the one engaging the strategy makes less money, but competitors are hurt more.
Its not a viable strategy unless one is also working to destroy the blockchain which one is mining.
In times of fork, it is an edge case where this circumstance may hold true.

It similarly holds true for the selfish miner, who can reduce the profitability for all mining on the chain on which they are mining selfishly, to serve a foreign chain. The edge case exists when one has a stronger interest in one chain over another which uses the same hashing algorithm.

Selfish mining is also advantaged by the new DAA in Bitcoin Cash which adjusts difficulty more rapidly. The current environment is the most optimal for a SM attack vs Bitcoin Cash than any we have ever had.

If we don't see selfish mining used against Bitcoin Cash now, I doubt we'll ever see it.

That gave me an idea. The miners could selfish mining the Core chain to expedite the flippening.